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# 41
03-17-2014, 06:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by protogoth View Post
No, no. I just never considered the ship moving at impulse between the starbases, nor from Romulus to the Fed side of the Neutral Zone, until reviewing that article. I would reckon the ship used its quantum drive when not cloaked, and activated the cloak when it got in sensor range, thereby necessarily slowing to "simple impulse." But even just using impulse, they could have managed FTL. I said "use FTL" previously, rather than "warp," because some have gotten their panties in a bunch over whether or not Romulans even had FTL speed capability before the alliance with the Klingons (although it should be obvious that they did), but what I meant was "engage the quantum drive." My apologies for a poor choice of words in my previous post.

Edit: I apologize for yet another poor choice of words (in this case, I have an excuse: I was barely awake). I should have said "quantum singularity drive," not "quantum drive."
I feel the need to apologize as well, on wednesday I was (and still am) under some serius stress.
RL is currently pummeling me with the kind of stuff that makes you want to runin circles and scream really loud.
However I should not have taken that out on you. No question: it would have been better to properly ask what you meant with "FTL" rather than got bats like I did. Sorry.

There are a few points I'd like to add to the table however.
For one, I doubt the Romulans already had Quantum Singularity drives in the 23rd century.
In addition I'm pretty sure during the time the Enterprise followed the Romulan ship as a "shadow" and before the Romulan commander ordered the ship cloaked they did some scans.
And if the ship had been equipped with more than one type of power source they would not have totally neglected to mention that.
So that would mean it only had fusion-power of some sort. And that actually doesn't other me that much. Let me explain:
The most common use of FTL propulsion in Trek uses plasma that is sent through a series of coils to generate a subspace field. From what I've read about nuclear fusion it also produces plasma. Which is also the case in Star Trek, as Star Trek VI showed where Spock said under impulse the Klingon ship left a trail of plasma.
So the plasma an impulse (fusion) reactor produces is far less "hot", "compressed" etc. than that of a matter-antimatte collider but it's still plasma. So my guess, given the few lines of dialogue we have, is that the Romulans of the era simply diverted the power from their fusion generators into their warp nacelles for faster than light travel.
The ship in "Balance of Terror" might very well have had fusion reactors for its impulse engines and additional, bigger, ones in its hull just like Federation and Klingon ships already had a warpcore there. The setup would resemble that of oil-powered navan ships with rows of boilers.

Like you said: it's inefficient but it should work. This would also fit that dialogue in the sense that it never gave the impression the Romulan ship had to change its speed due to the activation or deactivation of its cloak. It was simply slow the entire time and the cloak simply worsened the fuel problems.
There the analogy to the submarine warfare this was based on somewhat fell apart since a sub diving resulted in a switch from diesel to batteries unless it was snorceling.

So then the Alliance with the Klingons would ahve still given the Romulans something really worthwile: antimatter collider-powered ships.
There's also some indication that Romulans didn't have modern Disruptor weaponry until they got it from the Klingons. The Romulans in "The Enterprise Incident" used Klingon Disruptors (though one could argue this was to reuse the props and save money)
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# 42
03-17-2014, 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
I feel the need to apologize as well, on wednesday I was (and still am) under some serius stress.
RL is currently pummeling me with the kind of stuff that makes you want to runin circles and scream really loud.
However I should not have taken that out on you. No question: it would have been better to properly ask what you meant with "FTL" rather than got bats like I did. Sorry.
I would also be annoyed if someone appeared to be moving the goalposts in a discussion. My aim in these discussions is not the Rhetorician's ignoble goal of "winning" the debate, but rather, the Logician's noble goal of finding the truth (or getting as close as possible to the truth) -- although in the discussions of Romulan character in the Romulan Gameplay forum, my goal is to point out that the attitudes and behavior of the Tal'Shiar should not be generalized to the Romulan people as a whole, and that the TOS depiction of Romulans was very different from the predominant depictions of Romulans in the later series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
There are a few points I'd like to add to the table however.
For one, I doubt the Romulans already had Quantum Singularity drives in the 23rd century.
In addition I'm pretty sure during the time the Enterprise followed the Romulan ship as a "shadow" and before the Romulan commander ordered the ship cloaked they did some scans.
And if the ship had been equipped with more than one type of power source they would not have totally neglected to mention that.
So that would mean it only had fusion-power of some sort. And that actually doesn't other me that much. Let me explain:
The most common use of FTL propulsion in Trek uses plasma that is sent through a series of coils to generate a subspace field. From what I've read about nuclear fusion it also produces plasma. Which is also the case in Star Trek, as Star Trek VI showed where Spock said under impulse the Klingon ship left a trail of plasma.
So the plasma an impulse (fusion) reactor produces is far less "hot", "compressed" etc. than that of a matter-antimatte collider but it's still plasma. So my guess, given the few lines of dialogue we have, is that the Romulans of the era simply diverted the power from their fusion generators into their warp nacelles for faster than light travel.
The ship in "Balance of Terror" might very well have had fusion reactors for its impulse engines and additional, bigger, ones in its hull just like Federation and Klingon ships already had a warpcore there. The setup would resemble that of oil-powered navan ships with rows of boilers.

Like you said: it's inefficient but it should work. This would also fit that dialogue in the sense that it never gave the impression the Romulan ship had to change its speed due to the activation or deactivation of its cloak. It was simply slow the entire time and the cloak simply worsened the fuel problems.
There the analogy to the submarine warfare this was based on somewhat fell apart since a sub diving resulted in a switch from diesel to batteries unless it was snorceling.

So then the Alliance with the Klingons would ahve still given the Romulans something really worthwile: antimatter collider-powered ships.
There's also some indication that Romulans didn't have modern Disruptor weaponry until they got it from the Klingons. The Romulans in "The Enterprise Incident" used Klingon Disruptors (though one could argue this was to reuse the props and save money)
The meaning and implications of Scotty's statement "Their power is simple impulse" have been discussed to death for decades. The prevailing opinion seems to be that the T'liss could not use its "FTL" core drive (whatever type it may have been) at the same time as it had the cloak active, because it simply doesn't make sense for the ship to have arrived at that point without some kind of FTL speed, but that doesn't mean that they could not have attained a more limited and less fuel-conserving FTL travel by means of a different type of drive.

Many fans have claimed, based on this single statement from Montgomery Scott, that the Romulans did not have "warp" (by which they have intended "FTL") capability until the alliance with the Klingons, but a date is provided in a non-canon source for the quantum singularity drive: the Earth year AD 1411 is when the scientific arm of the Tal'Diann succeeded in creating an artificial quantum singularity, containing it, and harnessing its power (according to the Player Guide of the Decipher Star Trek RPG), as noted in "Book 2" of my discussion previously linked here.

The remainder of what I have to say is a blend of canon and non-canon information (but some of that non-canon information is taken as at least more-or-less authoritative by STO; I refer specifically to Diane Duane's "Rihannsu" saga), and logical analysis.

We also have to take into account that the Earth-Romulan War took place over a hundred years prior to "Balance of Terror" (2156-2160, according to ENT and TNG), which means that over a hundred years before the T'liss commanded by Keras attacked the posts along the Neutral Zone (TOS "Balance of Terror"), the Romulans must have already had some means of traveling faster than light -- because the Sol system is even further from the Eisn system (where Romulus was located) than 40 Eridani A (where Vulcan is located). The relevance of this in relation to a capacity for FTL travel is explained below.

The likelihood is slim to non-existent of S'task and Tellus having lived long enough to make it to the Eisn system (where ch'Rihan and ch'Havran, or Romulus and Remus, were located) after leaving Vulcan as adults (and remember, the average lifespan of Romulans is 250 years), with S'task having been murdered, on the floor of what eventually became the Romulan Senate building, at age 248, 78 years After Settlement (according to The Romulan Way, by Diane Duane) without the Sundered having already had some means of attaining FTL speed when they left Vulcan. We're also told by STO that the Sundered made it as far as Dewa-III (now New Romulus) before finally settling in the Eisn system. The Dewa/Mol'Rihan system appears to be further from Vulcan than the Eisn system, and in a different direction. Now, I admit I haven't done the distance/speed calculations (I'm a language, music, and history type, and not so much a mathematics and sciences type, which is one of the reasons I focued on Logic during my undergrad studies, but while the study of Logic helped me understand those things better, it didn't make me more inclined to do math problems for fun), but I think it's rather improbable that a people without FTL speed could make it from 40 Eridani A (40 Eridani A is the Vulcan system, according to Gene Roddenberry; 40 Eridani A is about 16.5 LY from Earth) to the Dewa system and then to the Eisn system in only 130 years (if S'task was only 40 when he left Vulcan, and lived another 78 years after reaching Romulus, that would mean the journey took 130 years). A quick look at the STO map of the galaxy ought to demonstrate the relevance of these comparisons; if Earth is only about 16.5 LY (about 99 trillion miles) from Vulcan, then Romulus is obviously considerably further from Vulcan, and New Romulus is further still from Vulcan. How long would it take to travel even a mere 99 trillion miles without some means of moving at FTL speed?

I would have to re-watch the episode to be sure, but wasn't the T'liss in "Balance of Terror" already damaged before the Enterprise was able to detect a "shadow" when scanning, and the damage responsible for their ability to find the "shadow"?

Fvillhu s'Tal'Diann (Phi'Tlaru Rihan) Praetor of the Tal'Diann/Tal-Diann
Tal'Diann = KDF-allied Romulan Republic Fleet / Tal-Diann = Fed-allied Romulan Republic Fleet
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# 43
03-17-2014, 11:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by protogoth View Post
I would also be annoyed if someone appeared to be moving the goalposts in a discussion. My aim in these discussions is not the Rhetorician's ignoble goal of "winning" the debate, but rather, the Logician's noble goal of finding the truth (or getting as close as possible to the truth) -- although in the discussions of Romulan character in the Romulan Gameplay forum, my goal is to point out that the attitudes and behavior of the Tal'Shiar should not be generalized to the Romulan people as a whole, and that the TOS depiction of Romulans was very different from the predominant depictions of Romulans in the later series.

Annoyed is one thing, but given that I know you're actually very thorough with your stuff I should've known better nontheless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by protogoth View Post
The meaning and implications of Scotty's statement "Their power is simple impulse" have been discussed to death for decades. The prevailing opinion seems to be that the T'liss could not use its "FTL" core drive (whatever type it may have been) at the same time as it had the cloak active, because it simply doesn't make sense for the ship to have arrived at that point without some kind of FTL speed, but that doesn't mean that they could not have attained a more limited and less fuel-conserving FTL travel by means of a different type of drive.

Many fans have claimed, based on this single statement from Montgomery Scott, that the Romulans did not have "warp" (by which they have intended "FTL") capability until the alliance with the Klingons, but a date is provided in a non-canon source for the quantum singularity drive: the Earth year AD 1411 is when the scientific arm of the Tal'Diann succeeded in creating an artificial quantum singularity, containing it, and harnessing its power (according to the Player Guide of the Decipher Star Trek RPG), as noted in "Book 2" of my discussion previously linked here.

The remainder of what I have to say is a blend of canon and non-canon information (but some of that non-canon information is taken as at least more-or-less authoritative by STO; I refer specifically to Diane Duane's "Rihannsu" saga), and logical analysis.

We also have to take into account that the Earth-Romulan War took place over a hundred years prior to "Balance of Terror" (2156-2160, according to ENT and TNG), which means that over a hundred years before the T'liss commanded by Keras attacked the posts along the Neutral Zone (TOS "Balance of Terror"), the Romulans must have already had some means of traveling faster than light -- because the Sol system is even further from the Eisn system (where Romulus was located) than 40 Eridani A (where Vulcan is located). The relevance of this in relation to a capacity for FTL travel is explained below.

The likelihood is slim to non-existent of S'task and Tellus having lived long enough to make it to the Eisn system (where ch'Rihan and ch'Havran, or Romulus and Remus, were located) after leaving Vulcan as adults (and remember, the average lifespan of Romulans is 250 years), with S'task having been murdered, on the floor of what eventually became the Romulan Senate building, at age 248, 78 years After Settlement (according to The Romulan Way, by Diane Duane) without the Sundered having already had some means of attaining FTL speed when they left Vulcan. We're also told by STO that the Sundered made it as far as Dewa-III (now New Romulus) before finally settling in the Eisn system. The Dewa/Mol'Rihan system appears to be further from Vulcan than the Eisn system, and in a different direction. Now, I admit I haven't done the distance/speed calculations (I'm a language, music, and history type, and not so much a mathematics and sciences type, which is one of the reasons I focued on Logic during my undergrad studies, but while the study of Logic helped me understand those things better, it didn't make me more inclined to do math problems for fun), but I think it's rather improbable that a people without FTL speed could make it from 40 Eridani A (40 Eridani A is the Vulcan system, according to Gene Roddenberry; 40 Eridani A is about 16.5 LY from Earth) to the Dewa system and then to the Eisn system in only 130 years (if S'task was only 40 when he left Vulcan, and lived another 78 years after reaching Romulus, that would mean the journey took 130 years). A quick look at the STO map of the galaxy ought to demonstrate the relevance of these comparisons; if Earth is only about 16.5 LY (about 99 trillion miles) from Vulcan, then Romulus is obviously considerably further from Vulcan, and New Romulus is further still from Vulcan. How long would it take to travel even a mere 99 trillion miles without some means of moving at FTL speed?
Oh, I'm well aware of the eternal debates on this matter, but the thing is that those will always be there. We just don't have to reenact them or be bound by what they agree on. We're free to draw our own conclusions after all.
The important thing to keep in mind is that the idea the ship was not FTL capable is ludicrous.
And I think it's what we agree on.
But it's also nonsensical to assume it was unable to move at faster than light speed while cloaked. Because that makes the same amount of sense given the distances involved and that the very purpose of the cloak was to conceal the ship from the very stations it was supposed to ambush.
It's also noteworthy that Scotty only talks about impulse power, not that the Romulan ship is restricted to impulse engines. May sound pedantic but it's at least something to consider.

HMM, maybe it was a case of "just enough fuel to get there, blow stuff up and get home" for the ship on this mission. They probably didn't expect to get into a fight with an enemy ship.
It's also possible the ship was refueled at the edge of the neutral zone by some kind of tanker for its missions in the same manner bombers are refueled in midflight.

I also have the Decipher material, BUT here's the thing: as with most licensed material it can only be taken with a truckload of salt.
An interesting detail to keep in mind is that the Drone ship was powered by "boridium cells".
Not antimatter and not a quantum singularity. And it did just fine with its warp-propulsion.

[A different view on the entire Romulan Exodus matter is given in the "Prime Directive" RPG which is set in the same (almost but still non-Trek) as "Star Fleet Battles".
It describes that exodus as one where a fleet of large ships with primitve FTL-drives is constructed that carry crew as well as large banks of embryos for a future population.
they're launched over an extended amount of time from the Vulan homeworld as the "logical" Vulcans consider the construction of these ships a better solution than to constantly deal with the future Romulans. However it is agreed that the exoduse must lead away from planets that were known to be inhabited to prevent interference or perhaps even conquest by those leaving.
The lead ship decides on the direction and leaves behind recorder markers for the others to follow.
The recorder markers also blow up after a few decades to prevent the Vulcans from following them. It takes them roughly 45 years to travel to their new home.
One thing of note is that since each ship became its own seperate community over that voyage and each ship lands on a seperate location. As a result Romulan society becomes somewhat fractured with great houses that compete with each other. As a consequence they're kinda standing in their own way pretty often.
Their later combat ships are also described as FTL-capable but they are powered by fusion generators.]

Also, please keep in mind that you can appearently use all kinds of stuff for FLT propulsion as long as it produces power in the right form.
I'm not even sure it's established how the Phoenix was powered in "First Contact".
Given it took them months just to get enough materials to build a cockpit the ship was probably nuclear-powered. It's highly unlikely antimatter was easier to obtain than titanium.
So it's alread possible with nuclear fission to achieve Warp 1 on a prototype engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by protogoth View Post
I would have to re-watch the episode to be sure, but wasn't the T'liss in "Balance of Terror" already damaged before the Enterprise was able to detect a "shadow" when scanning, and the damage responsible for their ability to find the "shadow"?
Nope.
The sequence of events was
The T'liss blows up outpost 4

Spock detects a "blip" on the motion sensor

Kirk orders "parallel course", matching movement of the enemy ship so they think it's an echo
that's what I mean by "shadowing" the Romulan ship, I think you misunderstood me there

the Romulan ship decloaks

later the Romulan commander decides they're not running from a sensor echo but an enemy ship and orders cloak the only concern of the officer in charge of the cloak was power consumption, nothing about speed


sorry got a headache, all I can think of right now
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# 44
03-18-2014, 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
Annoyed is one thing, but given that I know you're actually very thorough with your stuff I should've known better nontheless.
Thank you for the compliment, but even with my best efforts to choose my words with care, I'm still an imperfect biological unit and capable of error.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
Oh, I'm well aware of the eternal debates on this matter, but the thing is that those will always be there. We just don't have to reenact them or be bound by what they agree on. We're free to draw our own conclusions after all.
The important thing to keep in mind is that the idea the ship was not FTL capable is ludicrous.
And I think it's what we agree on.
But it's also nonsensical to assume it was unable to move at faster than light speed while cloaked. Because that makes the same amount of sense given the distances involved and that the very purpose of the cloak was to conceal the ship from the very stations it was supposed to ambush.
It's also noteworthy that Scotty only talks about impulse power, not that the Romulan ship is restricted to impulse engines. May sound pedantic but it's at least something to consider.
I believe what I've seen as the prevailing opinion on the subject is not that they couldn't use FTL speed while cloaked, only that they could not engage whatever their primary FTL drive was (quantum singularity, warp, whatever) while cloaked; if impulse drive can be pushed in order to attain FTL speed in some way as was previously suggested, that would resolve the issue of distance and speed, while still giving some explanation of Scotty's comment that takes it as correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
HMM, maybe it was a case of "just enough fuel to get there, blow stuff up and get home" for the ship on this mission. They probably didn't expect to get into a fight with an enemy ship.
That would work except for the information we have that the mission of Keras was to "test the Federation's defenses." Given that, they should have anticipated and provided for the possibility of engaging with enemy ships. However, if their faith in the cloaking device was so great as to produce overconfidence, it could still work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
It's also possible the ship was refueled at the edge of the neutral zone by some kind of tanker for its missions in the same manner bombers are refueled in midflight.
That could also work, and is more likely in my opinion than another suggestion I've seen: that the T'liss really did have only impulse engines, but was dropped off at the edge of the Neutral Zone by some sort of "mother ship."

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
I also have the Decipher material, BUT here's the thing: as with most licensed material it can only be taken with a truckload of salt.
Indeed. I find that especially so with regard to the Last Unicorn's "The Way of D'Era." It has some good qualities, but the overall picture it paints is lacking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
An interesting detail to keep in mind is that the Drone ship was powered by "boridium cells".
Not antimatter and not a quantum singularity. And it did just fine with its warp-propulsion.
I would think that the Romulan scientists would not simply stop experimenting with propulsion or trying to improve engines simply because they had successfully managed to invent quantum singularity cores. If anything, I would expect a discovery/invention of this sort to encourage more such activity, with the hope of even greater advances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
[A different view on the entire Romulan Exodus matter is given in the "Prime Directive" RPG which is set in the same (almost but still non-Trek) as "Star Fleet Battles".
It describes that exodus as one where a fleet of large ships with primitve FTL-drives is constructed that carry crew as well as large banks of embryos for a future population.
they're launched over an extended amount of time from the Vulan homeworld as the "logical" Vulcans consider the construction of these ships a better solution than to constantly deal with the future Romulans. However it is agreed that the exoduse must lead away from planets that were known to be inhabited to prevent interference or perhaps even conquest by those leaving.
The lead ship decides on the direction and leaves behind recorder markers for the others to follow.
The recorder markers also blow up after a few decades to prevent the Vulcans from following them. It takes them roughly 45 years to travel to their new home.
One thing of note is that since each ship became its own seperate community over that voyage and each ship lands on a seperate location. As a result Romulan society becomes somewhat fractured with great houses that compete with each other. As a consequence they're kinda standing in their own way pretty often.
Their later combat ships are also described as FTL-capable but they are powered by fusion generators.]
That's an interesting alternative history with which I was not familiar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
Also, please keep in mind that you can appearently use all kinds of stuff for FLT propulsion as long as it produces power in the right form.
I'm not even sure it's established how the Phoenix was powered in "First Contact".
Given it took them months just to get enough materials to build a cockpit the ship was probably nuclear-powered. It's highly unlikely antimatter was easier to obtain than titanium.
So it's alread possible with nuclear fission to achieve Warp 1 on a prototype engine.
Yes, in the question of how to attain FTL travel, the power source is not as important as the effectiveness of the power produced. As for the Phoenix, all that was said was that it had warp speed ability, and clearly deploys warp nacelles, but "warp" is used ambiguously in Trek; in some cases it appears to refer to a specific type of engine, while in others, it refers only to the resulting speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
Nope.
The sequence of events was
The T'liss blows up outpost 4

Spock detects a "blip" on the motion sensor

Kirk orders "parallel course", matching movement of the enemy ship so they think it's an echo
that's what I mean by "shadowing" the Romulan ship, I think you misunderstood me there

the Romulan ship decloaks

later the Romulan commander decides they're not running from a sensor echo but an enemy ship and orders cloak the only concern of the officer in charge of the cloak was power consumption, nothing about speed
Alright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
sorry got a headache, all I can think of right now
Hope you feel better.

Fvillhu s'Tal'Diann (Phi'Tlaru Rihan) Praetor of the Tal'Diann/Tal-Diann
Tal'Diann = KDF-allied Romulan Republic Fleet / Tal-Diann = Fed-allied Romulan Republic Fleet
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# 45 Avenger for the RR
04-08-2014, 12:26 AM
What do you say to that the RR could get a warbird with parameters Avenger / Mogh ?
Such a ship would have I liked , because I think they have not a decent cruiser.

http://kuc.cz/gik5wa
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Posts: 4,528
# 46
04-08-2014, 12:59 AM
I don't need more ships, i need more variations. I really hate that I can't kitbash around with the Romulan ships.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,740
# 47
04-09-2014, 09:23 AM
People will never understand that one difference between factions are the quantity and quality of the ships. Romulans have less quantity of ships, and this is intended, but they have maybe the best arsenal of great ships around. Only with the scimitar pack.. you have there 35% of the population of STO lol.

More ships? no, i think they dont need more ships. We could see one or two more romulan ships in time, but not soon i guess. More klingon and starfleet ships will appear before another romulan one does. And we still waiting for some fleet klingon ships that are a MUST. So, no.. lol.
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Posts: 335
# 48
04-13-2014, 07:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssb64 View Post
i know this kind of thread has been made before, but... its kinda like the galaxy reboot thing, i think we need to get devs attention, so that they dont make what they did *aham, or not* to klingons long time ago...
I'd say all signs point to a complete cessation of hostilities between the kdf and fed. Both kdf and fed already share most of their ships with the rommies. The recent Dyson ships use tech from all three.

I reckon they plan to solve this problem by putting us all in one faction or dropping faction restrictions on ships.
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Posts: 335
# 49
04-13-2014, 07:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by edgecrysger View Post
People will never understand that one difference between factions are the quantity and quality of the ships. Romulans have less quantity of ships, and this is intended, but they have maybe the best arsenal of great ships around.
Completely untrue.

Romulans have plenty of tactical ships and they're fine. But excluding the Dyson sci/tac, Romulans only have one science vessel and it's truly terrible. It's ridiculously large and slow - because it was designed as a mob ship, not a player vessel - and it's butt ugly into the bargain.
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,740
# 50
04-13-2014, 10:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by varnoukh View Post
Completely untrue.

Romulans have plenty of tactical ships and they're fine. But excluding the Dyson sci/tac, Romulans only have one science vessel and it's truly terrible. It's ridiculously large and slow - because it was designed as a mob ship, not a player vessel - and it's butt ugly into the bargain.
Dude, you only need to have a look at the c-store ships, for example. A really short list compared with the other factions.

And you saying "this is untrue" i dont get it. You agree with me about all i said lol.
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