Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 476
# 401
03-05-2014, 07:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattjohnsonva View Post
[/indent]
Hmm, watch the episode Parallels, those multiple timelines are not closed, they co-exist, this is the many worlds theory, whereby at each quantum decoherence event the universe splits into two different universes each free to develop differently.

In addition, in the timeline we saw Riker, in his GX, war had broken out, and the Galaxy was no longer at peace, hence the modifications to the Enterprise and because it was his wish, "one of the advantages of being an Admiral". Well one could say the same about the timeline we are in now, war has broken out, it is reasonable to assume that similar modifications would have been made to that ship under these circumstances. The fly in the ointment is that in our timeline the USS Enterprise D was crashed by a women driver, however it is still reasonable to assume that the Galaxy class with it's built in versatility would have been adapted for battle along similar lines.
I watched Parallels , and that still doesn't make the Galaxy-x any more possible in the "Prime Universe" (the one we have now), now that the events that led to the heavy modifications to the Enterprise are now nonexistent.

The problem with assumptions in this regard is the fact there is no information other than what we see in that one episode. All you are doing is wild mass guessing. Reasonable is in the eye of the beholder. I do not consider it reasonable, since there is nothing to base it on.

For all we know Admiral "A Klingon stole my woman" Riker could have had that thing built just to shoot Worf with.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 476
# 402
03-05-2014, 07:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captaind3 View Post
To an earlier post, the Galaxy was actually supposed to be equivalent to the Klingon Vor'cha, the Sovereign and the Negh'var are contemporary.
Not quite, the Sovereign came after the Galaxy. It is a newer more advanced ship. It does exist in the same time frame, but by the same token you could say the Constitution was a contemporary of the Excelsior when it (the Excelsior) launched.

Quote:
I still can't get over the fact that the Fleet/Galaxy-X has worse tactical seating than a Fleet Nova. That's mind boggling. And it isn't against the Nova, it's insane for that to be the case for the Galaxy Dreadnaught.


The Phaser Lance is a sniper weapon, good at range, incredible penetration, and excellent killing power. A single Negh'var destroyed in five rapid shots. It's essentially was a, oh my, single target fire at will. Maybe one might call it a fire at will beam overload combination. I like the idea on the overhaul of the Lance. Five shots with extremely high shield penetration and shield damage. I mean if you consider a Negh'var has a hull in the 50K range, that means 10K per volley and five shots per volley, with the caveat of very narrow firing arc. It shouldn't miss if the target is in the arc, but you should be able to escape the arc fairly easily without any control going on.


As is though, I still say LtCdr Tac for the dread and fleet dread, and a sci or universal LtCdr for the Galaxy-R.

And I think the devs should really consider adapting the Dyson Science ship tech for the Galaxy's saucer separation mode.
I would be in favor of that sort of change, because it is exactly what is shown on screen. The spinal phaser should have a a much faster firing cycle than it currently has. The accuracy on it is horrible, and could use considerable improvement. How the hell can you miss a large stationary target?

I do not agree that it needs a lt commander tactical though. Nothing was shown that demonstrated any sort of advanced tactical capability other than "decloak and shoot until it explodes".

Quote:
By that same mark isn't this a future that never happened?

The dreadnaught came about in the anti-future timeline because of the collapse of the Romulan Empire and the alliance with the Klingons. What do we have here, the collapse of the Romulans and war with the Klingons. Uniforms? Present and accounted for.

And technically by the lore of this game, the Dreadnaught was launched ten years ago. For this timeline it does exist.
It was created in a timeline that no longer exists. In that timeline the Romulans were conquered in their entirety by the Klingons, and there existed a state of cold war between the Federation and Klingon Empire. In this one, the Romulan homeworld system was destroyed by a supernova, and the Romulan Empire was fragmented. By that measure, no, they are different. It is in the game because it's a 'Cool Starship", and same with the uniforms, they go with the 'Cool Starship".

Quote:
Alright this is gonna be a little mean.

What's the main difference between the timeline that progressed and the anti-time future? In the anti-time future, Deanna died.

So that's the choice. Either Deanna dies, or the Enterprise-D does.
I never really like either. Can I have both? This way all future Enterprises have one less thing to worry about.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 167
# 403
03-05-2014, 08:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by abystander0 View Post
I do not agree that it needs a lt commander tactical though. Nothing was shown that demonstrated any sort of advanced tactical capability other than "decloak and shoot until it explodes".
Personally, I'd like a LtCmdr Tactical BOff seat from a game-play perspective, rather than a canon one. Cause if we're following canon for this ship, then the Phaser Lance should fire at least five times rapidly, cruiser along at warp 13, and blast a Negh'var to bits with a single volley from that BFG.

If something is going to be called a Dreadnought, I'd like it to instill dread in my enemies. As of now, two ensign and a single Lt Tac ability isn't going to put a dent in much.
Captain
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 688
# 404
03-05-2014, 08:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecosmic1 View Post
I get that your English is bad, as you stated in another thread, but whether it is standard or not it is still a big discount. For the people who want those ships getting them 1/3 off is a good deal. I paid full price for all of mine.
The deal is nothing special and the incentive to buy does not exist.

Let us face facts - Cryptic made their announcement focus on the Dreadnought, threw in some arguably-deceptive claims about it and concluded with the impossible-to-miss "by the way the real dreadnought is in the fleet store". Everything else is superfluous to "SELLING THAT FLEET SHIP!"

And as the focus of this whole setup is the Dreadnought, or more precisely the "vastly superior Fleet version" (remember "FLEET == moar PEW PEW" and this one comes with a phaser lance!) the only people who would have reason to buy the bundle are those people who have not figured out you can spend 2000 zen, drop some EC for fleet modules, and walk away with "the real Dreadnought update" and an ECR you only pulled out of its box to cannibalize for a console.

And before you try "The bridge, the cloak, the 2-piece and AMS" recognize the bridge pack is undoubtedly selling so poorly that giving it away is their last ditch effort to "move the inventory", the cloak can be pulled off the TER, and the 2-piece bonus is not worth wasting a console slot on AMS.

To conclude - the mistake people make with all of this advertising is assuming the company is appealing to consumer wants. The company cares not what the consumer wants, they care for only what they think they can convince the consumer that they want. And that is why STO is F2P.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,258
# 405
03-05-2014, 08:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by abystander0 View Post
I watched Parallels , and that still doesn't make the Galaxy-x any more possible in the "Prime Universe" (the one we have now), now that the events that led to the heavy modifications to the Enterprise are now nonexistent.

The problem with assumptions in this regard is the fact there is no information other than what we see in that one episode. All you are doing is wild mass guessing. Reasonable is in the eye of the beholder. I do not consider it reasonable, since there is nothing to base it on.

For all we know Admiral "A Klingon stole my woman" Riker could have had that thing built just to shoot Worf with.
That would be hilarious. I actually agree with his Parallels multi continuity statement, however the Anti-Time Future as it was created by Q is suspect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by abystander0 View Post
Not quite, the Sovereign came after the Galaxy. It is a newer more advanced ship. It does exist in the same time frame, but by the same token you could say the Constitution was a contemporary of the Excelsior when it (the Excelsior) launched.
That's now what I said though.

I said that the Vor'cha and the Galaxy came out at around the same time and that the Sovereign and the Negh'var were also launched at around the same time.


Quote:
I would be in favor of that sort of change, because it is exactly what is shown on screen. The spinal phaser should have a a much faster firing cycle than it currently has. The accuracy on it is horrible, and could use considerable improvement. How the hell can you miss a large stationary target?

I do not agree that it needs a lt commander tactical though. Nothing was shown that demonstrated any sort of advanced tactical capability other than "decloak and shoot until it explodes".
The idea of a LtCdr tactical has nothing to do with onscreen canon.

You make a starship that can equip dual cannons. With only a Lt tac slot you have restricted it to having one cannon ability. That defies logic. Especially when you call it a dreadnaught, the ships with the greatest firing ability. And then you have what by all accounts should be the inferior 114 year old Excelsior and a fleet Science vessel that have a LtCdr tactical boff slot and it violates all logic and common sense.

Quote:
It was created in a timeline that no longer exists. In that timeline the Romulans were conquered in their entirety by the Klingons, and there existed a state of cold war between the Federation and Klingon Empire. In this one, the Romulan homeworld system was destroyed by a supernova, and the Romulan Empire was fragmented. By that measure, no, they are different. It is in the game because it's a 'Cool Starship", and same with the uniforms, they go with the 'Cool Starship".
That is completely irrelevant.

It exists in this timeline. Heck it exists for some of the same reasons. Romulan Empire no longer a major factor, the Federation and the Klingons are no longer friendly. Khitomer Accords gone. The Federation needed a more tactical ship, they refitted some Galaxies. Path to 2409, 2399. It is canon to this timeline, not just a cool ship that they pulled out for nostalgia, they wrote it in.

And those All Good Things uniforms has been shown in timelines outside of the Anti-Time Future, they also showed up in the DS9 episode the Visitor (the one where Sisko was trapped in subspace and Jake spent his whole life trying to get him back).

Quote:
I never really like either. Can I have both? This way all future Enterprises have one less thing to worry about.
Fine by me.
Yes I support This

"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 484
# 406
03-05-2014, 08:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecosmic1 View Post
And I will say again that no one is disputing that. As I said a few posts up, they have the right to produce whatever product they wish and you have the right to not buy it. If you do not like the product you do not need to justify why you do not want to purchase it, and they do not need to justify why they wish to sell it. It is as simple as that.

Just because you want X does not mean they must give you X.

In economics, its customary to have an ear for the needs of the potential customer and then fill that need with a product.
Heck, a whole industry has sprung up around the whole issue of market analysis.
Heck ,we are telling them what we'd like to have. Straight up. And some dumb demand about making a fed scimitar aside, the needs are pretty small time. LTC tac, a revamped lance. A flexible seating using the dyson ships tech for the galaxy.
But noooo. Cryptic has to go the extra mile here and add INSULT to injury by not only blabbing about how they are going to bring the ship into line with the other dreads, when they are not. In fact they continue to take another DUMP on us by trying to sell this HACK JOB as something big, especially infuriating is the fact that after 4 years and hundreds of pages of suggestions and good ideas they do this:

- not fix the model
- slap a fckn hangar on it (ONE hangar, not even 2 like the jemmy dread) on the faction that has no frigate pets.
- change the vital tac ensign to universal, as if we would want to to run something different but tac! On this tac starved WARSHIP.
- Lance is still ****ty gun that gets out damaged by a turret.
- a lame set bonus noone asked for. and saucer sep. on a ship that should not even have it.

and here is the big kicker:

They try to sell the ship as the big bad warship of the federation, when the excelsior and AC clearly outstrip it in terms of power. Not even mentioning the Regent and avenger her....

So in fact they are lying to their customers.
Do not lie to your customer, if they tell you what they'd like try to give it to them.

And yet companies still ignore this.
Remember Microsoft and their Xbox one debacle?
They have ignored the "vocal minority" and are paying for it now.

Cryptic is run by a brother of that ocean marketing guy it seems.....

"Customers? Yeah lets **** on them. What good did they ever do?"
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,258
# 407
03-05-2014, 09:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reynoldsxd View Post
And yet companies still ignore this.
Remember Microsoft and their Xbox one debacle?
They have ignored the "vocal minority" and are paying for it now.

Cryptic is run by a brother of that ocean marketing guy it seems.....

"Customers? Yeah lets **** on them. What good did they ever do?"
But they at least Microsoft listened, acknowledged, and corrected.
Yes I support This

"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 476
# 408
03-05-2014, 10:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captaind3 View Post

That's now what I said though.

I said that the Vor'cha and the Galaxy came out at around the same time and that the Sovereign and the Negh'var were also launched at around the same time.
Ok, yes, I misread that. I thought that you were directly comparing them.

Quote:
The idea of a LtCdr tactical has nothing to do with onscreen canon.

You make a starship that can equip dual cannons. With only a Lt tac slot you have restricted it to having one cannon ability. That defies logic. Especially when you call it a dreadnaught, the ships with the greatest firing ability. And then you have what by all accounts should be the inferior 114 year old Excelsior and a fleet Science vessel that have a LtCdr tactical boff slot and it violates all logic and common sense.
Don't take this the wrong way, but the NX ship can use cannons, and so can the lt level escorts without the use of a Lt commander tactical slot. I think that allowing the Dreadnaught to use cannons was a big mistake. For one, they have a narrow firing arc and as has been pointed out, they are not practical on a ship with low maneuverability. Secondly there is nothing to indicate that the Dreadnaught had any such weapons on screen. Yes, Cryptic put them on the Dreadnaught for whatever reason. They should remove the ability, and do something else. The cannon issue is a red herring to me. You can use other weapons on that ship. Being focused on the fact that it is allowed to mount cannons, I think, is silly, as is the desire for a Lt commander tactical slot to accommodate more skills for them.


Quote:
That is completely irrelevant.

It exists in this timeline. Heck it exists for some of the same reasons. Romulan Empire no longer a major factor, the Federation and the Klingons are no longer friendly. Khitomer Accords gone. The Federation needed a more tactical ship, they refitted some Galaxies. Path to 2409, 2399. It is canon to this timeline, not just a cool ship that they pulled out for nostalgia, they wrote it in.
No it's not.

It exists in the game because it's a cool starship. Outside of the game, as far as I know, it doesn't exist (unless you can show me where). It was shoehorned in when Cryptic decided to make it the official dreadnaught for the Federation, in place of the Jupiter Class, with no real explanation of what it was doing there. It is just laziness on Cryptic's part, not any sort of canon.

I tried looking for a reference to the Federation developing the Galaxy-X dreadnaught in the path to 2409, and I am just not seeing it.

Just because the Romulan Empire is gone as well as the Khitomer Accords, doesn't magically make the Federations commitment to peace evaporate. Starfleet has done pretty well with exploration ships. The whole "Federation needs battleships" train of thought, is a player desire for more powercreep above and beyond what we already have. This isn't Starfleet Battles Online.

Quote:
And those All Good Things uniforms has been shown in timelines outside of the Anti-Time Future, they also showed up in the DS9 episode the Visitor (the one where Sisko was trapped in subspace and Jake spent his whole life trying to get him back).
Good enough, I forgot about that one.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,319
# 409
03-05-2014, 10:56 PM
From the release notes:

Quote:
The Galaxy Class starships have some new and exciting improvements!
Details can be read at: Galaxy Class Reboot Blog
New and exciting improvements? Really?

But I guess the silence from the powers that be says more than words ever could. Although it seems that they're MORE than happy to respond to the 'can't wait' posts from the easily pleased on the facebook page.

And I can't bring myself to log into the game anymore.

STAR TREK BATTLES - HIGH DPS PLAYERS NEED NOT APPY

Last edited by reyan01; 03-05-2014 at 11:13 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,673
# 410
03-05-2014, 11:37 PM
Okay... Running this down:

Destiny of some kind exists in Star Trek.

In the Mirror Universe, despite hundreds of years of alternate history, Archer, Tucker, Hoshi, and T'Pol are aboard the NX-01. Kirk, Spock, Sulu, etc. are aboard the 1701. Sisko, Bashir, O'Brien, Kira, and Odo are aboard DS9. Even Vic is through unknown circumstances. They could have deviated. Jake doesn't exist for example and Jennifer was alive at first. But the creators chose not to.

In the alternate universe created by the red matter incursion, the same crew winds up aboard the Enterprise. Carol Marcus may be British but Kirk still hooks up with her.

In Parallels, Worf shifts between Enterprises that occupy the same physical space down to the milimeter despite different events and then encounters more Enterprises all investigating the same telescope, including in timelines where the Cardassians joined Starfleet, the Bajorans enslaved the Cardassians, and where the Borg defeated the Federation.

You have characters commenting on destiny as a real force.

Spock: here is a theory. There could be some logic to the belief that time is fluid, like a river, with currents, eddies, backwash.
Kirk: And the same currents that swept McCoy to a certain time and place might sweep us there, too.

Your best bet is to treat the timeline like a river. If it can happen to a river, it can happen to time. It can be split, dammed, diverted, or impacted with relatively little change sometimes because it covers the same terrain.

The butterfly effect in Star Trek is false. It is NOT REAL. The universe has a narrative that it tries to adhere to in the face of all plausibility.

In the case of STO, most events from parallel futures seen on the shows happened in STO's timeline.

Jake wrote his novels and is a journalist.

The Doctor became an advocate for photonic rights.

Picard now has Irumodic syndrome and retired to France.

Worf returned to the Klingon Empire.

Data has a white streak in his hair and is a college professor (albeit at Oxford in STO's timeline).

Beverly commands the Pasteur and, it is implied, was married to Jean-Luc before divorcing.

Geordi has retained his history from AGT and Timeless. He commanded the Galaxy class Challenger. He married Leah Brahms (after her marriage ended for reasons not addressed in the game universe). They had the same three kids they had in AGT. He has quit and rejoined Starfleet several times to make this work so that circa the timeframe of AGT, he was out of Starfleet and circa Timeless, he was commanding a Galaxy class ship.

Kim, as I recall, commanded the Rhode Island.

The Yellowstone runabout was developed, as it was in another timeline.

These all happened in alternate timelines and averting the big events of those timelines did not alter the same basic events from happening in STO's timeline.

In general, there is no butterfly effect. Changes to history have unexpected or unpredictable effects but even the death or saving of major historical figures or radical alterations to culture and battles typically leaves a lot intact.

The traditional sci-fi butterfly effect is that stepping on a butterfly in the past may change elections, language, culture, or annhilate human history.

The Star Trek version generally says, "Not so much." A well targeted change can have big effects but generally stepping on a butterfly is more likely to have wildly unpredictable effects like make everyone wear green or have different middle names, if you notice a difference at all.

Star Trek also veers towards the notion embraced more and more by corners of string theory (albeit in a pop way, like most Trek sci-fi) that the present is the result of multiple alternate pasts, the future the result of multiple alternate presents. That events converge from contradictory pasts towards a shared present. We may or may not have multiple futures that could be ours but the future has multiple pasts that it is reconciling.
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