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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,132
# 31
03-09-2014, 07:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by projectfrontier View Post
footage (17 seconds, 6 shots) being disputed:

Shot A - Riker
Shot B - Enterprise
Shot C - Klingon
Shot D - Enterprise
Shot E - Klingon (until Enterprise passes through)
Shot F - Worf

It is the case that in order to satisfy you arguments shot B and D must overlap (phaser blast 2 in B is 1 in D), meaning between B and D we have 3 actual phaser blasts: 1 hitting in shot C; 1 hitting off-screen (as indicated by the start of shot E where there is a 2nd visible damage shot ventral amidships aft); 1 hitting at the start of E. However, if this is the case then the disruptor fire through-out shot D would also be in part of shot C where it is not present at all.

Therefore in order to satisfy your arguments we have to either:
(a) mute the video and stop watching with the first hit
or
(b) assume egregiously horrendous editing
d
By chance, did you do A?
I've done A now.

I don't think the lag is big enough to discount that it could be the same shot. And missing at that range in that sequence just doesn't make sense. They did the Jaws thing on those ships, the Big E had them dead to rights. And none of the shots in shot D were shown as missing. The punch of that shot was that you just saw the Enterprise perforate the warships with no difficulty, it doesn't hold up if they missed the first shot. On another note, unless the opponent is cloaked, the Enterprise never missed that I can recall (especially not at the ridiculous rate that you miss in this game).

Quote:
Idea #1: Cannon Rapid Fire (meaning slightly different tactical powers than one would assume for a "beam")

Idea #2: Change the duration of the animation used to represent the shot being fired to synchronize with the weapon's firing pattern.
Well people have been asking for a rapid fire single target phaser ability for a while now.


On another note, why isn't there a long burn phaser attack? It transpired plenty of times in the show that they would fire continuously on a single spot until they went through, it would be similar if not identical to how the Kinetic Cutting Beam fires now.

Quote:
Firing arc is one of those game elements, like flight pitch, that requires the suspension of disbelief.
Well legitimately every beam array had a 360 arc barring line of sight. The old dual beam banks had multiple emplacements to cover all arcs.

What I wouldn't I could see a Phaser lance actually having maybe a 45 degree firing arc, I think the 10 degree arc is reasonable for in game purposes however.

And what I wouldn't give to be able to do a Yeager loop or a barrel roll.
Yes I support This

"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 159
# 32
03-10-2014, 10:42 AM
The Kumari Wing Cannons deal 1,114.6 base damage per hit every 3 seconds, coming to about 300+ DPS.

Currently, the Phaser Lance deals 9k damage per it's one-two hit every three minutes, which is about 100 DPS. (If both shots hit.)

So, completely unbuffed at 50 weapon power, the Wing Cannons will deal damage equal to the Lance within 48 second, and at the end of the Lance's 3 minute cooldown, the Wing Cannons will have dealt approximately 67,000 damage or a 372% increase in damage.

Moderatly buffed by passive modifiers such as Skills (maxed for energy weapon damage), Weapon power (125), and tactical consoles (3, the number available to the Dread I have now) available to all players, the Wing Cannons get aroud 6,500 damage per hit, and so about 2,200 DSP.

With those same modifiers, I can get the Lance to around 14,000 per hit, and so about 155 DPS.

With these numbers, the Wing Cannons will out damage the Lance within 12 seconds. At three minutes, the Wing Cannons deal 396,000 damage or 1,414% increase over the Lance in similar conditions.

(I have absolutely no idea if my math is correct, feel free to nitpick.)



Now, these numbers mean absolutely nothing to this idea, as I'm comparing an ability to a weapon, though I thought they were intestering.

Funny, by turning the Lance into a copy of the Kumari's Wing Cannons, we're not really asking for a buff of any kind, just an addition to make the idea of the Lance have a viable representation. The Wing Cannons are already balanced out compared to other equippable weapons anyway, and so there wouldn't be any need for testing.

It really seems like just a "Copy-Paste" would be needed.
Captain
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 687
# 33
03-10-2014, 11:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
I don't see this happening without people willing to put another $25 down on a new ship. You're talking work that involves art, testing, systems, database hookups that are non-trivial.

I think this is a separate $25 purchase or it doesn't happen and if people lose enthusiasm at the idea of people buying it as a separate ship, the dev response internally will be that it isn't financially justifiable.
Your conclusions are grossly exaggerated. All of the modifications proposed make use of assets already on the live server; the work is either absolutely trivial or the game's back-end needs to be put out of its misery.

As for the financially justifiable aspect? This is opportunity for Cryptic to leverage even their polarized audience into a long-term financial/morale support base being that the move is (a) practically costless and all-but-implemented, (b) does not undermine the game's content as their general monetizing gimmicks have done (see all cases of "power creep"), (c) would undoubtedly garner praise even from people who hate them for their attention to detail, and (d) is a demonstration that their "we love Star Trek" is not merely lip service.

The only injury Cryptic faces is from (a) not doing it or (b) doing it and then deciding to fall back on the current "Star Trek sells itself so much so we can shovel steaming piles onto your plate and you will eat it up, so UP YOURS!" mentality which is why the game is what it is today - a series of gimmicks funded by a lottery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captaind3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by projectfrontier View Post
footage (17 seconds, 6 shots) being disputed:

Shot A - Riker
Shot B - Enterprise
Shot C - Klingon
Shot D - Enterprise
Shot E - Klingon (until Enterprise passes through)
Shot F - Worf

It is the case that in order to satisfy you arguments shot B and D must overlap (phaser blast 2 in B is 1 in D), meaning between B and D we have 3 actual phaser blasts: 1 hitting in shot C; 1 hitting off-screen (as indicated by the start of shot E where there is a 2nd visible damage shot ventral amidships aft); 1 hitting at the start of E. However, if this is the case then the disruptor fire through-out shot D would also be in part of shot C where it is not present at all.

Therefore in order to satisfy your arguments we have to either:
(a) mute the video and stop watching with the first hit
or
(b) assume egregiously horrendous editing
d
By chance, did you do A?
I've done A now.

I don't think the lag is big enough to discount that it could be the same shot. And missing at that range in that sequence just doesn't make sense. They did the Jaws thing on those ships, the Big E had them dead to rights. And none of the shots in shot D were shown as missing. The punch of that shot was that you just saw the Enterprise perforate the warships with no difficulty, it doesn't hold up if they missed the first shot. On another note, unless the opponent is cloaked, the Enterprise never missed that I can recall (especially not at the ridiculous rate that you miss in this game).
No quarter given then: Bring the footage up and look away as the audio plays. Repeat this action several times. If your conclusions do not change then not only are you effectively arguing "God Gun", you are arguing that Star Trek's production team did a hack-job as in order for you to be correct that is precisely what is required in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captaind3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by projectfrontier View Post
Idea #1: Cannon Rapid Fire (meaning slightly different tactical powers than one would assume for a "beam")

Idea #2: Change the duration of the animation used to represent the shot being fired to synchronize with the weapon's firing pattern.
Well people have been asking for a rapid fire single target phaser ability for a while now.

On another note, why isn't there a long burn phaser attack? It transpired plenty of times in the show that they would fire continuously on a single spot until they went through, it would be similar if not identical to how the Kinetic Cutting Beam fires now.
I have been proposing a "all weapons rapid fire" and a "all weapons scattery volley" in place of the current 6 powers for a while now, it received a lot of jeering from people who arguably did not watch Star Trek.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captaind3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by projectfrontier View Post
Firing arc is one of those game elements, like flight pitch, that requires the suspension of disbelief.
Well legitimately every beam array had a 360 arc barring line of sight. The old dual beam banks had multiple emplacements to cover all arcs.

What I wouldn't I could see a Phaser lance actually having maybe a 45 degree firing arc, I think the 10 degree arc is reasonable for in game purposes however.

And what I wouldn't give to be able to do a Yeager loop or a barrel roll.
My co-drafter for this Kumari-cannon-to-"lance"-conversion-proposal put the whole "can the phaser shoot me?" in fairly unambiguous terms: The "old style" banks are ball turret analogs of eyes. If they can turn towards a target completely they can "see" it with fire. The "new style" arrays are analogs to framed mirrors. If you can see the surface of the mirror over the frame's edge clearly that part can "see" you with fire.

As for altering the beams coverage - again this is one of those suspension of disbelieve moments otherwise we fall down the slippery slope that ends with other changes, like the Defiant's quads being nearly straight ahead only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caasicam View Post
The Kumari Wing Cannons deal 1,114.6 base damage per hit every 3 seconds, coming to about 300+ DPS.

Currently, the Phaser Lance deals 9k damage per it's one-two hit every three minutes, which is about 100 DPS. (If both shots hit.)

So, completely unbuffed at 50 weapon power, the Wing Cannons will deal damage equal to the Lance within 48 second, and at the end of the Lance's 3 minute cooldown, the Wing Cannons will have dealt approximately 67,000 damage or a 372% increase in damage.

Moderatly buffed by passive modifiers such as Skills (maxed for energy weapon damage), Weapon power (125), and tactical consoles (3, the number available to the Dread I have now) available to all players, the Wing Cannons get aroud 6,500 damage per hit, and so about 2,200 DSP.

With those same modifiers, I can get the Lance to around 14,000 per hit, and so about 155 DPS.

With these numbers, the Wing Cannons will out damage the Lance within 12 seconds. At three minutes, the Wing Cannons deal 396,000 damage or 1,414% increase over the Lance in similar conditions.

(I have absolutely no idea if my math is correct, feel free to nitpick.)

Now, these numbers mean absolutely nothing to this idea, as I'm comparing an ability to a weapon, though I thought they were intestering.

Funny, by turning the Lance into a copy of the Kumari's Wing Cannons, we're not really asking for a buff of any kind, just an addition to make the idea of the Lance have a viable representation. The Wing Cannons are already balanced out compared to other equippable weapons anyway, and so there wouldn't be any need for testing.

It really seems like just a "Copy-Paste" would be needed.
The math seems on course. You should take a look at the Andorian Escort's cannon-power-console - it makes the phaser-lance-toggle look even worse.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 159
# 34
03-10-2014, 12:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by projectfrontier View Post
The math seems on course. You should take a look at the Andorian Escort's cannon-power-console - it makes the phaser-lance-toggle look even worse.
I planned on giving that a once-over when I got back online.

I've taken out entire groups of spheres with a single buffed shot from that console, and completely dropped Tac Cube's shield facing from full (on Elite, mind you), while the current Lance power barely scratches things.

Now, I don't have the Sci Andorian Escort's console, though I don't think it's really comparable in the way that the overcharge one is to the Lance.
Captain
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 687
# 35
03-10-2014, 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by caasicam View Post
I planned on giving that a once-over when I got back online.

I've taken out entire groups of spheres with a single buffed shot from that console, and completely dropped Tac Cube's shield facing from full (on Elite, mind you), while the current Lance power barely scratches things.

Now, I don't have the Sci Andorian Escort's console, though I don't think it's really comparable in the way that the overcharge one is to the Lance.
Comparable to what? Isn't that the tachyon blast?

I had someone with both ships check the phaser-console - they said it looks like the phaser lance was stuck into a console and given a 2 second charge up and a 2km aoe with each hit (and it never misses). Did you get that from it too?

Last edited by projectfrontier; 03-10-2014 at 03:27 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 734
# 36
03-11-2014, 01:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by caasicam View Post
What about as an extra proc? Perhaps something like the Piercing Tetryon weapons, 2.5% chance for 50% shield penetration. Basically a third of the Elachi proc but without any lockout, thus allowing for it to occure more than once each volley.

Stat-wise, could look something like...

Phaser Spinal Lance [Dmg]x3
Energy Damage

45' targeting arc
10 kilometer Range
3 sec recharge
to target: X Phaser Damage (_DPS)
to self: -15 Weapon Power when firing other weapons
to target: 2.5% Chance: Disable 1 Subsystem for 5 sec
2.5% Chance for 50% of attack to ignore enemy shields
That needs to be [Acc]x3. Want the damn thing to hit the broad side of a barn please.

Also, I'm all for there being an ACTUAL weapon, but I'd rather it not be a separate item I must equip. If the dread were blessed with more than 4 weapon slots in front, then I might find this less bothersome, but since that will not change... unless the devs introduce the concept of "universal" weapon slots which can be fore or aft... I don't want to give up any more of that precious front real estate. I'd like it built in to the ship like the sci destroyer's proton cannons. That or simply reduce the cool on the click-power so it feels like I can use it reasonably frequently and or increase the accuracy. Without accuracy increase, maybe so far as bringing the cool down to 30-60 seconds, with accuracy improvement, 90 seconds. 3 minutes is too long.
Captain
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 687
# 37
03-11-2014, 07:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
That needs to be [Acc]x3. Want the damn thing to hit the broad side of a barn please.

Also, I'm all for there being an ACTUAL weapon, but I'd rather it not be a separate item I must equip. If the dread were blessed with more than 4 weapon slots in front, then I might find this less bothersome, but since that will not change... unless the devs introduce the concept of "universal" weapon slots which can be fore or aft... I don't want to give up any more of that precious front real estate. I'd like it built in to the ship like the sci destroyer's proton cannons. That or simply reduce the cool on the click-power so it feels like I can use it reasonably frequently and or increase the accuracy. Without accuracy increase, maybe so far as bringing the cool down to 30-60 seconds, with accuracy improvement, 90 seconds. 3 minutes is too long.
I will update the original post to show the "Tactical Mode" concept posted on the 2nd/3rd pages - that is where caasicam and me mention leveraging the DSD's special slot.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 159
# 38
03-11-2014, 09:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by projectfrontier View Post
Quote:
That needs to be [Acc]x3. Want the damn thing to hit the broad side of a barn please.

Also, I'm all for there being an ACTUAL weapon, but I'd rather it not be a separate item I must equip. If the dread were blessed with more than 4 weapon slots in front, then I might find this less bothersome, but since that will not change... unless the devs introduce the concept of "universal" weapon slots which can be fore or aft... I don't want to give up any more of that precious front real estate. I'd like it built in to the ship like the sci destroyer's proton cannons. That or simply reduce the cool on the click-power so it feels like I can use it reasonably frequently and or increase the accuracy. Without accuracy increase, maybe so far as bringing the cool down to 30-60 seconds, with accuracy improvement, 90 seconds. 3 minutes is too long.
I will update the original post to show the "Tactical Mode" concept posted on the 2nd/3rd pages - that is where caasicam and me mention leveraging the DSD's special slot.
Basically, that idea is to have the Lance (weapon version) be similar to the DSD's Proton cannons. And so the ship would switch to a separate "mode" to activate the weaponized Lance.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 159
# 39
03-11-2014, 02:57 PM
Kinda would like to point out to those reading, and/or unsure of exactly what we're proposing here.

The base idea, of having a version of the Phaser Lance as an equippable weapon exactly like the Kumari's Wing Cannons does not require any changes to be made to the ship or the current in-built click-power Phaser Lance.

It would not replace the Phaser Lance, but augment it.]

It does not change, replace, remove, or buff the Phaser Lance we have now, but is pre-balanced and tested addition to a ship to make it far more like the one we saw on-screen.

Now, that's just the base idea, having the tactical mode and such is adding more new tech to this ship.
Captain
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 687
# 40
03-11-2014, 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by caasicam View Post
Kinda would like to point out to those reading, and/or unsure of exactly what we're proposing here.

The base idea, of having a version of the Phaser Lance as an equippable weapon exactly like the Kumari's Wing Cannons does not require any changes to be made to the ship or the current in-built click-power Phaser Lance.

It would not replace the Phaser Lance, but augment it.]

It does not change, replace, remove, or buff the Phaser Lance we have now, but is pre-balanced and tested addition to a ship to make it far more like the one we saw on-screen.

Now, that's just the base idea, having the tactical mode and such is adding more new tech to this ship.
Yep, here is a snippet of the updated original post that summarizes the proposal:

Quote:
Originally Posted by projectfrontier View Post
TL;DR of Proposal: We recycle weapon assets to get a gun item for use on the Galaxy-X Dreadnought to complement its "gun power" in much the same way as the Andorian Escort has a gun+gun-power. A number of other current ships (e.g. Bortas/Bortasqu') have gun-powers without a gun-item or have been shown with gun's that could have powers (e.g. the ST:Voyager series with the short-lived Iso-Kinetic Cannon) with all cases being near-costless opportunities for Cryptic to improve content. We recycle the Dyson Science Destroyers "Tactical Mode" ship-mechanic assets to give the Galaxy-Dreadnought platform greater utility while maintaining "reasonable balance" (by making the player choose between hangar and lance for example). This can be applied to other ships with feasible novel gun-items (e.g. Bortas/Bortasqu', Voyager, etc) and feasible player experience systems not currently in game at all (e.g. directly controlling space stations in combat).
Updating that took a while, it is busy 'round here.
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