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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
A Little League Baseball team will not defeat a Major League Baseball team, ever. Seems reasonable, right?

So what makes you think the novice, below average, average, above average, fair, somewhat good, good, very good, excellent or exceptional STO PvP players stand any chance against World Class PvPers?

They have no chance.

And note the grades I list. There are more grades than that. There are 1st rate players and there are 20th rate players. And you can add more divisions than that too.

A good PvP (natural ability and Ventrillo) premade group will almost never defeat an exceptional PvP premade group. And that same exceptional team that handily beats the good team will almost never defeat a World Class team. And there are tiers in World Class play in any game whether it's tennis, poker, baseball, chess or MMO PvP.

But whereas it's apparent that a golfer, chess master, chess grandmaster, tennis player is better (more skilled) than you (he beats you most or all of the time), it's not so apparent in poker, backgammon, and MMO PvP.

Unskilled players in these latter mentioned games curse their bad luck or scream "Nerf!", never realizing that they lose because they are just outclassed. They play against the Garry Kasparov of Poker, Backgammon or STO PvP and they just can't figure out why or how they lose all the time.


Now STO is populated by mostly new (novice), below average and average MMO players (PvP or PvE). But whereas the good to very good and up PvPers have the experience and skill to recognize when they are outclassed, the novice, below average and average PvPers have no clue. They usually lose so the game must be unbalanced.

And hence all these "They Are Overpowered" threads, whether it's nerf Klingons or nerf Federation.

Yes, there are some imbalances. They are minor. In 1st tier play the Klingons have an edge. In second tier play the Federation has somewhat of an edge. Most knowledgeable PvPers say T3-T5 is relatively balanced. The game's new. Things will be fixed.

And remember, the less skilled the player, the bigger any small edge seems. Just remember that the better players will beat you regardless of who has a small edge. Would you play Garry Kasparov for money if he spotted you a Queen? I wouldn't. He'd crush me even though I was a Queen up. And most people here are reasonable enough to realize that.

If there was a balanced premade team of Average players in STO and they were given double shields and double hull and played against a balanced World Class team with regular ships, or even just a balanced Exceptional team, who would you bet on? Bingo.


So I think before people post on what needs to be nerfed anywhere they should ask themselves this question: How would I rate myself as a PvP player? And remember that there is a big gulf between Average and Good, and if you are an Average player and your Average premade team has been beaten by an Exceptional team it'll look like magic.

In any game situation, provided the situation is even perceived correctly, the question is not: what do I do in this situation? The question is: what do I consider in this situation? Given that the best players think quickly and therefore consider many options quickly they have a huge additional edge on top of the edge they already have.


I just wanted to clarify that.


I propose that down the line there be an optional ranking system that allows players to compete with players who have a comparable skill rating.

And it's important to allow spectators in the PvP arenas (it's an instanced arena with no in-game impact, so why not?). This way, a Federation team that has been beaten by a Klingon team can watch another Federation team crush the same Klingon team. Or visa versa. I know, I know. Make the spectator ships invisible and incorporeal. It may add to lag though. Or you might have the spectators pick a competing ship and see what it sees without having to be in the arena. This can lead to cheating, though. Just a thought. Cryptic can figure something out.

Allow people to wager energy credits or some such on their favorite team. Have Cryptic give some monetary reward now and then to top teams in several tiers. Be creative. Just a thought.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
02-05-2010, 12:19 AM
Some sort of Ranking system or Ladder games are going to be required in end-game. Otherwise there won't be any point to even playing PvP, really. If you make a group where your goal is trying to win you'll just fight a bunch of half-made teams and pickup games and it'll be the most boring and worthless waste of time ever as you roll through them like nothing.

The game has potential for very fun ranked matches assuming they add them in, and some kind of bonus like extra gear or something for participating and doing well would make things all the better.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
02-05-2010, 12:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oplaid View Post
Some sort of Ranking system or Ladder games are going to be required in end-game. Otherwise there won't be any point to even playing PvP, really. If you make a group where your goal is trying to win you'll just fight a bunch of half-made teams and pickup games and it'll be the most boring and worthless waste of time ever as you roll through them like nothing.

The game has potential for very fun ranked matches assuming they add them in, and some kind of bonus like extra gear or something for participating and doing well would make things all the better.

I have to say that despite all else I may kvetch about, the PvP space combat is very complex and intriguing. That part is very, very good.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
02-05-2010, 12:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher Lloyd
I have to say that despite all else I may kvetch about, the PvP space combat is very complex and intriguing. That part is very, very good.
Its the only reason I sub'd
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
02-05-2010, 12:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher Lloyd
I have to say that despite all else I may kvetch about, the PvP space combat is very complex and intriguing. That part is very, very good.
i agree.

but imo normal DM maps should stay as they are, pugs and premades.

it makes the pug players find Fleets(guilds) and team up. Making this game a better game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
02-05-2010, 01:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodlance View Post
i agree.

but imo normal DM maps should stay as they are, pugs and premades.

it makes the pug players find Fleets(guilds) and team up. Making this game a better game.

Yes, I think it should be optional, but many will choose that option at least now and then. As the game ages there are many options open to Cryptic regarding making PvP mean something.

If they have a ranking system, especially with slight to moderate monetary rewards, it may encourage some PvPers from other games to check us out. If they have a monthy $3,000 prize, that should encourage action.

A quarterly "open to all comers tournament" for say $5,000 or $10,000 would be quite interesting indeed. Good advertising too.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
02-05-2010, 01:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher Lloyd
Yes, I think it should be optional, but many will choose that option at least now and then. As the game ages there are many options open to Cryptic regarding making PvP mean something.

If they have a ranking system, especially with slight to moderate monetary rewards, it may encourage some PvPers from other games to check us out. If they have a monthy $3,000 prize, that should encourage action.

A quarterly "open to all comers tournament" for say $5,000 or $10,000 would be quite interesting indeed. Good advertising too.
Real life cash? No.

There already are incentives to queue up. Bring actual money into it and the game changes -entirely-. And not in a good way. Remember Fury?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
02-05-2010, 04:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mewnie View Post
Real life cash? No.

There already are incentives to queue up. Bring actual money into it and the game changes -entirely-. And not in a good way. Remember Fury?
The only incentive to queue up for Klingons is that's the only way we can level effectively. Therer's no incentive for Federation players except to fight Klingons. You're not reading what I'm saying either. These would be open, optional tournaments sponsored by Cryptic. Cryptic puts up the money, the players just compete. You don't have to participate. But if you disagree, give specifics. No, I don't know Fury. Kindly explain. Are you saying better players will come in and defeat you?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
02-05-2010, 04:24 AM
I can see the benefit of a ranking system eventually, though I'd prefer if it wasn't like the one WoW had where past a certain ranking you had to fight constantly every day just to keep around the same level, and maybe get a little higher. Though it was kinda cool to see who the super death warmaster was each particular week, the initial way they had it linked to pvp gear was terrible.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
02-05-2010, 04:25 AM
As long as there is no meaningfull open RvR the tournamentstyle will be in the focus. Make the scenarios a sideshow and not the mainreason to play and it will be fine. It works for WAR.
I'm now in T4 and played my Klingonfaction Char more or less solo all the time. I'd like to have a premade but i'm still looking around to figure out what fleets there are and what people the players are.

As long there is a chance that premades can fight pug's it will lead to qq ing on the forums and unsatisfied premade players looking for a challange (again, see WAR).

The best thing would be to make solo and groupqueing not compatible. If you que solo you will play against other soloplayers and if you que in a group you will fight against other groups.
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