Lieutenant
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 41
If you have five +30% damage tact consoles, it doesn't give +150% overall damage.
Instead the % damage is on the base weapon damage as i have read (mk 0 weapon?).
So when looking at the tooltip, the total dps doesn't increase by +30% but more like +7%.
On the other hand, i read that APO does affect total damage, not just base weapon damage.

This is really misleading and confusing when large % numbers don't really give what is expected. Which uses base % damage and which does not?

Captain abilities:
APA, Tact Fleet, GDF

Boff abilities:
APO, CRF, CSV, BO, BFaW, (what %damage does DEM give?)

Traits:
Nausican pirate, Gorn+Klingon melee, plasma weapon specialist, soldier

Consoles:
Tact, embassy sci plasma infusers, CrtD% consoles

Space sets:
+% damage for polaron, tetryon, plasma, antiproton, disruptor
KHG 25% torpedo damage, T'varo +10% projectile, Protonic Arsenal +22% photon projectile

Ship abilities:
Sensor analysis

Weapons:
CrtD +20%, Voth -10% damage

Ship items:
warp/sing core AMP

Doffs:
weapon battery doff, Space+ground warfare, flight deck, security melee

Plus more you can think of.


Others percentages like %flight turn rate or %shield capacity affect total or just some base?

Resists:
If APB gives -30 resist, does this translate to roughly +30% damage on an NPC that has 0 resist?
And same for -10 disruptor.


----------
For the space sets, the antiproton damage increased by +10% as expected when looking at the tooltip. But the polaron mk xi gave only +2.5% instead of +8% (the Jem engine increases weapon power, so i tested with shield on or off). I'd like to buy the mk xii but if the increase really isn't as advertised, that's a waste.

Why can't STO just say what is base damage in the tooltip and what is not?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,802
# 2
03-21-2014, 10:41 AM
You can't really group everything in your list together, because not all of them follow the same mechanics. For instance, I would separate the following:

1. Damage bonuses
2. Damage resistance debuffs
3. Crits

If you really want to understand it all, then you have to dig through old threads with the math. Even for damage bonuses alone, I don't think anyone has a complete list, though virusdancer may carry a fairly comprehensive list in his head.

Basically, I think you are trying to ask too many questions at once. It would take several threads to answer them all. I'm not even sure anyone knows the answer to some of your questions.

Here is some reading to get you started.

Damage bonuses
Damage resistance
Crits

If you have specific questions afterwards, I think you would be better off starting a separate thread for each.

Last edited by frtoaster; 03-21-2014 at 11:16 AM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 41
# 3
03-21-2014, 01:51 PM
I'm not asking for the details of the mechanics. What I'm trying to do is to clarify the misleading damages that have a percent % sign on them. Ignore the resist and crit to make it simpler.

All those damages I listed have a percent % associated with them (some are listed on wiki).

In the damage thread you gave, it talks about weapon power and other things affecting damage. I want something simpler, a yes/no answer to each of those percent damages.
In that damage thread, it says:
"2pc KHG goes in Category 1, because it's a Base buff.
2pc T'varo goes in Category 3, because it's a non-Base buff."

Essentially, I want to know which ones are Base buffs, and which ones are non-Base buffs.

So that answers two of them:
Is KHG a base buff? Yes
Is T'varo 2pc a base buff? No

I was hoping people would fill in what they know for all those damages that have a percent % sign. Give a yes/no answer to each of them, if one is base buff or not.


For example is the antiproton set 10% damage buff a base buff? I think no because I got the full 10% damage.
Is the Jem Hadar polaron set a base buff? I think yes because I got only 2.5% damage instead of 8% for Mk XI. Unless there is some bug for one set but not the other?

Those two are of the same type, buffing energy type damage, but they appear to be doing something different.

So I just want to know
Is antiproton set a base buff? yes/no
Is polaron set a base buff? yes/no
Is plasma set a base buff? yes/no
Is the weapon battery doff +10% damage a base buff? yes/no
Is the Nausican pirate trait a base buff? yes/no
Is sensor analysis a base buff? yes/no
...
etc.

Having a list of which is a base buff and which is not is a lot easier than searching through many entire threads for each item. Many of those threads are outdated as well. I'm sure other people want to know too.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,672
# 4
03-21-2014, 02:20 PM
Technically, even calling something a base buff is misleading. It's been an ongoing battle to try to find the right labels for things. Whether it was pre-Weapon Power/post-Weapon Power (which was problematic) or Base and non-Base (still problematic)...it's basically been problematic.

Consider a standard +7.6% damage boost which some call base, eh? Technically, it's not strictly base.

Base 100
+7.6% = +7.6 = 107.6
*2.5 = 269 (weapon power, 125)

Base 100
*2.5 = 250 (weapon power, 125)
+7.6% = +19 = 269

For that aspect of the formula, it doesn't matter if you apply the Weapon Power bonus first to modify the base damage or if you calculate the 7.6% first and multiply by Weapon Power. However, the order you do them in will change whether one should call it base or not. Cause the base is the base...in that example, it's the 100. That +7.6% doesn't care if it's modifying that and then being modified by Weapon Power or if Weapon Power modifies the base first and then it modifies the modified base.

So basically both the set of labels (base/non-base and pre/post weapon power) are technically wrong...they're just used out of convenience which means they can be misleading.

Can't think of a better set of labels though, and since I tend to go with a certain method of breaking it down (based on how I learned from bareel)...I tend to go with certain labels...meh.

One could just go with a series of Category 1, Category 2, etc, etc, etc.

Category 1: that are either based on the unmodified base or the Weapon Power modified base to generate a new damage number
Category 2: that are based on the number generated from the numbers in Category 1 to create a new damage number
Category 3: which modifies the number from Category 2
Category 4: which modifies the number from Category 3

But even there, the numbers from 2 technically modify all the numbers from 1 as do the number from 3 and 4.

It's an annoyingly over-complex system, imho.

Category 1
Rarity/Quality
Mark
Starship Weapon Training
Starship Energy Weapons
Starship Projectile Weapons
Omega Weapon Training
Auxiliary Power Configuration - Offense
Tactical Team
Tactical Consoles
2pc Singularity Harness
Romulan Sci [Pla]
2pc Protonic
2pc Temporal
2pc Nukara
2pc Silent
2pc Predator
Rule 62
2pc KHG
2pc Jem'Hadar
2pc Breen

Category 2
Ambush
Attack Pattern Alpha
Attack Pattern Omega
Emergency Power to Weapons
2pc T'varo
2pc Obelisk

Category 3
Beam Fire at Will
Beam Overload
Cannon Rapid Fire
Cannon Scatter Volley
Torpedo High Yield
Torpedo Spread

Category 4
Critical Severity

For the life of me, I can't remember at the moment if the following are Cat1 or Cat2...

Flanking
[AMP]
2pc Proton
Proton Console
Pirate
The Battery DOFF one you mentioned
Sensor Analysis

Then there's also things like the 2pc Romulan Harness and even Ambiplasma Consoles that do not buff things folks think they might...

...and there's likely other things I'm forgetting off the top of my head at the moment.

It was simpler before the 2pc T'varo and 2pc Obelisk..

Cause we had

Category 1: Gear/Skill (including abilities/gear/etc that buffed Skill)
Category 2: General Ability Buffs
Category 3: Weapon Ability Buffs
Category 4: Critical Severity

But they complicated things. Would be nifty if they could just go back to the simpler form, so folks could just talk about Gear/Skill, Ability, Weapon Ability, Critical Severity...eh?


Fleet Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
U.S.S. Arcadia, Benthan Assault Cruiser - U.S.S. Deogen, Phantom Intel Escort
U.S.S. Endless, Hazari Destroyer - U.S.S. Naked Sun, Hirogen Apex Battle Cruiser
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,472
# 5
03-21-2014, 04:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Technically, even calling something a base buff is misleading. It's been an ongoing battle to try to find the right labels for things. Whether it was pre-Weapon Power/post-Weapon Power (which was problematic) or Base and non-Base (still problematic)...it's basically been problematic.

Consider a standard +7.6% damage boost which some call base, eh? Technically, it's not strictly base.

Base 100
+7.6% = +7.6 = 107.6
*2.5 = 269 (weapon power, 125)

Base 100
*2.5 = 250 (weapon power, 125)
+7.6% = +19 = 269

For that aspect of the formula, it doesn't matter if you apply the Weapon Power bonus first to modify the base damage or if you calculate the 7.6% first and multiply by Weapon Power. However, the order you do them in will change whether one should call it base or not. Cause the base is the base...in that example, it's the 100. That +7.6% doesn't care if it's modifying that and then being modified by Weapon Power or if Weapon Power modifies the base first and then it modifies the modified base.

So basically both the set of labels (base/non-base and pre/post weapon power) are technically wrong...they're just used out of convenience which means they can be misleading.

Can't think of a better set of labels though, and since I tend to go with a certain method of breaking it down (based on how I learned from bareel)...I tend to go with certain labels...meh.

One could just go with a series of Category 1, Category 2, etc, etc, etc.

Category 1: that are either based on the unmodified base or the Weapon Power modified base to generate a new damage number
Category 2: that are based on the number generated from the numbers in Category 1 to create a new damage number
Category 3: which modifies the number from Category 2
Category 4: which modifies the number from Category 3

But even there, the numbers from 2 technically modify all the numbers from 1 as do the number from 3 and 4.

It's an annoyingly over-complex system, imho.

Category 1
Rarity/Quality
Mark
Starship Weapon Training
Starship Energy Weapons
Starship Projectile Weapons
Omega Weapon Training
Auxiliary Power Configuration - Offense
Tactical Team
Tactical Consoles
2pc Singularity Harness
Romulan Sci [Pla]
2pc Protonic
2pc Temporal
2pc Nukara
2pc Silent
2pc Predator
Rule 62
2pc KHG
2pc Jem'Hadar
2pc Breen

Category 2
Ambush
Attack Pattern Alpha
Attack Pattern Omega
Emergency Power to Weapons
2pc T'varo
2pc Obelisk

Category 3
Beam Fire at Will
Beam Overload
Cannon Rapid Fire
Cannon Scatter Volley
Torpedo High Yield
Torpedo Spread

Category 4
Critical Severity

For the life of me, I can't remember at the moment if the following are Cat1 or Cat2...

Flanking
[AMP]
2pc Proton
Proton Console
Pirate
The Battery DOFF one you mentioned
Sensor Analysis

Then there's also things like the 2pc Romulan Harness and even Ambiplasma Consoles that do not buff things folks think they might...

...and there's likely other things I'm forgetting off the top of my head at the moment.

It was simpler before the 2pc T'varo and 2pc Obelisk..

Cause we had

Category 1: Gear/Skill (including abilities/gear/etc that buffed Skill)
Category 2: General Ability Buffs
Category 3: Weapon Ability Buffs
Category 4: Critical Severity

But they complicated things. Would be nifty if they could just go back to the simpler form, so folks could just talk about Gear/Skill, Ability, Weapon Ability, Critical Severity...eh?
There is a category 5, which has only Nausicaan in it. It modifies true final damage, from all sources except other Nausicaans. Type of damage modified is also unlimited, not just weapons, but all skills, console gemmicks, and when you die, it increases damage from your own warp core breach.

Since it's a racial trait, white boffs are just as good. I'm not sure why Nausicaans get no attention compared to Romulans, when they either come close or surpass Romulan boff in dps gains, depending on where you stand on crit chance and severity.

There's also what can only be described as mystery category, including [AMP] core modifier. People have done extensive testing after they realized their dps fell after switching from amp core to ap set core. It's definitely less than the stated 3.3% dmg per sub, yet far higher than base dmg. It's not clear what it's based on. In term of final damage, it's roughly 3% per sub, and this doesn't seem to change significantly when any other factors, from skills to crit severity, changes.
Critical Hit Calculator

Last edited by noblet; 03-21-2014 at 04:46 PM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 41
# 6
03-21-2014, 05:08 PM
Thanks for the clarification.
From my point of view of wanting something really really simple yes/no that doesn't require any thinking Category 1 is base buff and Category 2 and higher is non-base buff.

That answers my question of whether to buy the Mk XII polaron set. The +13% damage increase sounds like a lot but really isn't because it's a base buff. Good thing i didn't waste money on it.

So from your list, the 2pc Obelisk antiproton is the only energy type boost that is worth it because it isn't base. Problem is, it requires a warp core and can't be used in warbirds. Why don't they have a singularity core for that set?

I saw in a thread someone mention that sensor analysis is like a tact console, so I would guess that implies sensor analysis is like a base buff. But then I'm not too sure of the accuracy when people just mentions things in passing without saying they actually tested it.

And what about Tetryon Glider?
It says adds -1.2 Shield Drain to all energy weapon attacks.
I have no idea what that means. Approximately what % total damage does it add to shield damage, say if max skilled in flow cap and max skilled in weapons, no flow cap consoles, and 125 weapon power?
Is it less than say 5% or greater than 5% total damage?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,802
# 7
03-21-2014, 07:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gedged2 View Post
I'm not asking for the details of the mechanics. What I'm trying to do is to clarify the misleading damages that have a percent % sign on them. Ignore the resist and crit to make it simpler.

All those damages I listed have a percent % associated with them (some are listed on wiki).

In the damage thread you gave, it talks about weapon power and other things affecting damage. I want something simpler, a yes/no answer to each of those percent damages.
In that damage thread, it says:
"2pc KHG goes in Category 1, because it's a Base buff.
2pc T'varo goes in Category 3, because it's a non-Base buff."

Essentially, I want to know which ones are Base buffs, and which ones are non-Base buffs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gedged2 View Post
Thanks for the clarification.
From my point of view of wanting something really really simple yes/no that doesn't require any thinking Category 1 is base buff and Category 2 and higher is non-base buff.
I understand your desire to keep things simple. You are probably thinking that everything in Category 1 doesn't give you the full benefit while everything in Category 2 or higher does. But as virusdancer explained, it's not so simple. It's not even clear that there's such a thing as "full benefit" in the first place. If you look at virusdancer's post, you will see that APO stacks additively with EPtW, but multiplicatively with CRF. So it doesn't make sense to lump APO, EPtW, and CRF all into one non-base category.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gedged2 View Post
And what about Tetryon Glider?
It says adds -1.2 Shield Drain to all energy weapon attacks.
I have no idea what that means. Approximately what % total damage does it add to shield damage, say if max skilled in flow cap and max skilled in weapons, no flow cap consoles, and 125 weapon power?
Is it less than say 5% or greater than 5% total damage?
I don't know the details of how tet glider works, but I do know it's not counted as normal weapons damage. It's counted as a shield drain, which means it doesn't belong to any of the categories that virusdancer listed above. DEM is another thing that doesn't count as normal weapons damage.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 41
# 8
03-21-2014, 11:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by frtoaster View Post
I understand your desire to keep things simple. You are probably thinking that everything in Category 1 doesn't give you the full benefit while everything in Category 2 or higher does. But as virusdancer explained, it's not so simple. It's not even clear that there's such a thing as "full benefit" in the first place. If you look at virusdancer's post, you will see that APO stacks additively with EPtW, but multiplicatively with CRF. So it doesn't make sense to lump APO, EPtW, and CRF all into one non-base category.



I don't know the details of how tet glider works, but I do know it's not counted as normal weapons damage. It's counted as a shield drain, which means it doesn't belong to any of the categories that virusdancer listed above. DEM is another thing that doesn't count as normal weapons damage.

I did read his post. To me, the category that has the most items effectively acts as the base. Category 1 has the most items so it behaves as the "base" or the dominant category. If Category 1 instead had the fewest items and Category 3 had the most items, then Category 3 would behave as the "base". If all the categories had similar number of items, then there wouldn't really be a "base". As it is now, Category 1 does act as a base because there are so many items in it and is dominant.

Items in Category 1 appear to have the least increase in final total damage for a given percent % number I think because so many in the same category additively suffers from diminishing return. Fewest items in a seperate category multiplicatively has the biggest effect on final damage.

I'm just interested in approximation for a decent good build using typical values that anyone would use, like for a tact using max weapon power and filling damage skills to max. Then the effect any one item has on final damage can be seen by removing or adding that item.
Like fire a weapon, see what damage it does. Then add the item of interest and see what damage increase it does. Or if the item is removable equipment, look at the tooltip of the weapon in the tray. See what dps number it gives hovering over the weapon without the item. Then equip the item and see what increase in dps it shows.
Doing that doesn't require knowing complex math equations.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,472
# 9
03-21-2014, 11:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gedged2 View Post
I did read his post. To me, the category that has the most items effectively acts as the base. Category 1 has the most items so it behaves as the "base" or the dominant category. If Category 1 instead had the fewest items and Category 3 had the most items, then Category 3 would behave as the "base". If all the categories had similar number of items, then there wouldn't really be a "base". As it is now, Category 1 does act as a base because there are so many items in it and is dominant.

Items in Category 1 appear to have the least increase in final total damage for a given percent % number I think because so many in the same category additively suffers from diminishing return. Fewest items in a seperate category multiplicatively has the biggest effect on final damage.

I'm just interested in approximation for a decent good build using typical values that anyone would use, like for a tact using max weapon power and filling damage skills to max. Then the effect any one item has on final damage can be seen by removing or adding that item.
Like fire a weapon, see what damage it does. Then add the item of interest and see what damage increase it does. Or if the item is removable equipment, look at the tooltip of the weapon in the tray. See what dps number it gives hovering over the weapon without the item. Then equip the item and see what increase in dps it shows.
Doing that doesn't require knowing complex math equations.
What equations? He just gave simple categories, and did I mention it's simple?

Alright, cheap easy common sense ways to maximize dps for dummies:
-Always put only specific tac consoles in tac slots, and never mix. Yes, its base. Fill them anyway.
-Always maximize weapon power.
-Always get full set of Nausicaans. White ones are just as good. Cheap as dirt.
-FAW/CSV is better than single target skills.
-Always have Beta cycling.

The basic checklist. Nothing will cost anything worth mentioning, so no excuses.
Critical Hit Calculator
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 418
# 10
03-22-2014, 12:08 AM
Even those 5 categories are confusing. For example using EPTW increases my damage by 11.51% and the tooltip says 10%. EPTW3 increases my damage by 18.34% and the tooltip says 16.6%. The Battery Doff which was listed as unknown for category but should increase damage by 10% increased my damage by 5.72%. Which btw was more then base*2.5 category 1. But it was way less then category 2's EPTW or Ambush, etc. So it's one of those in between those 2 categories. So confusing.

They just need to have them all increase by the same amount to avoid this confusion. Have them all increase damage by x% from base+energy weapon+weapons training+weapon power or whatever. Although that will still be confusing it will at least be consistent.

Last edited by dragonsbite; 03-22-2014 at 12:37 AM.
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