Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 13,477
Okay, the NX-01 would seem to have technology almost on par with that of the TOS Enterprise. How does this makes sense?

Let me draw information from the Romulan Wars books here momentarily (yes, I realise they're not canon).

Shortly before the war, Starfleet released the Daedalus-Class Starship (a class of ship still in existence by the 2260s, according to soft-canon). While the Daedalus had several improvements over the NX-Class in terms of scientific and propulsion capabilities, the NX was still the superior warship. However, for every 1 NX-Class, Starfleet could field 3 Daedalus-Classes, allowing them to cover coalition space. If you read the books, you'll see that Daedalus-Class ships got stomped by Romulan attack wings and that, while the NX-Class was more durable, it was still inferior compared to Romulan swarm tactics (see Atlantis NX-04).

Compare this to the NCC 1701, which has tactical abilities even with the Romulans.

Now I'm going to make another parallel, this time to the Real World.

In wars where you need to field large numbers quickly, it is common practice to dumb down your technology and equipment so it can be mass-produced. I'd suggest that this is what happened with the Daedalus-Class.

As for "Enterprise has lasers when TOS had lasers", no, they didn't. Enterprise had Phased Cannons, which fire a phased plasma-particle beam. Phasers fire a phased beam of Nadion Particles. Phased Cannons were a precursor to Phasers, but they were not Phasers. Also, 'lasers' is a typically-colloquial term used for a directed-energy weapon - most likely plasma-based. Enterprise had plasma pistols and plasma cannons in the pilot ('Broken Bow'). I'll come back to this later.

Starfleet defeated the Romulans at the Battle of Charon (if I remember rightly, this is actually canon), ending the Earth-Romulan War and establishing Starfleet as a Major Power in the Beta Quadrant. Remember that canon would suggest that there wasn't a Federation-Klingon War until 'Errand of Mercy', over a century later. In this century, I would suggest that Starfleet became complacent in their supremacy (it happened in the 24th Century, prior to the Borg attack), and thus did not update their technology significantly. So the dumb-dumb version of NX-Class technology on the Daedalus remained fairly standard by the time of 'The Cage', as Starfleet did not engage in any major conflict until 'Errand of Mercy'.

This brings me back to the lasers point I made earlier. Even in the real world, exploration vessels such as the HMS Echo are not heavily armed, nor are their crews. They're given what they need to defend themselves and nothing more. In 'The Cage', Enterprise was only an exploration vessel.

However, after the Cage, in response to increasing tensions between the Klingon Empire and the Federation, Starfleet began to update its technology back beyond the level it was at a century earlier. Suddenly, Starfleet makes an effort to mass produce the technology fielded on the NX-01 and update it, leading to the advanced phasers and hand phasers we see throughout the rest of TOS (remembering that it is suggested that 'Where no man has gone before' takes place several years after 'The Cage').

(Also, remember that TOS could be extremely inconsistent even within its own series! )

That's my explanation for it.
My Fan Fictions
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,252
# 2
03-31-2014, 03:47 AM
Umm, in ST:ENT Season 4, the two part episode "In a Mirror, Darkly "a Mirror NX, with better weapons and defences than Archer's Enterprise, did face a Connie. The USS Defiant NCC-1765.

It was one-shotted, and couldn't even damage the USS Defiant's shields before it was destroyed.



The NX is as much a warship on the level of the Connie as my collection of UK Learner Legal 125s are Factory MotoGP bikes.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 13,477
# 3
03-31-2014, 04:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbrjwrr View Post
Umm, in ST:ENT Season 4, the two part episode "In a Mirror, Darkly "a Mirror NX, with better weapons and defences than Archer's Enterprise, did face a Connie. The USS Defiant NCC-1765.

It was one-shotted, and couldn't even damage the USS Defiant's shields before it was destroyed.



The NX is as much a warship on the level of the Connie as my collection of UK Learner Legal 125s are Factory MotoGP bikes.
Yes, but the Defiant was lost after my hypothetical point where Starfleet updated its technology in response to the Klingon threat.

Also, it wasn't 'one-shotted'.

Also, I never stated the NX was a Constitution-level warship, I said it was more of a warship than the Daedalus-Class.
My Fan Fictions
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,252
# 4
03-31-2014, 04:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan218 View Post
Yes, but the Defiant was lost after my hypothetical point where Starfleet updated its technology in response to the Klingon threat.

Also, it wasn't 'one-shotted'.

Also, I never stated the NX was a Constitution-level warship, I said it was more of a warship than the Daedalus-Class.
Doesn't mean it had the new kit on it.

It basically was. One barraged would be a better description, but it means the same thing really.

The NX was never a warship. It was a science ship. If I was Starfleet during the UE/RSE war I would go round the Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites and so on, and combine all their best tech into one ship class. Because the result, on a spec sheet, wouldn't be far off a standard TOS era ship.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 13,477
# 5
03-31-2014, 04:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbrjwrr View Post
Doesn't mean it had the new kit on it.

It basically was. One barraged would be a better description, but it means the same thing really.

The NX was never a warship. It was a science ship. If I was Starfleet during the UE/RSE war I would go round the Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites and so on, and combine all their best tech into one ship class. Because the result, on a spec sheet, wouldn't be far off a standard TOS era ship.
The NX was never a warship, true, but it was better at it than the Daedalus-Class, according to the Romulan Wars books.

Also, there's a reason Starfleet didn't do that; the Vulcans wouldn't take an active role in the war and the other races in the Coalition weren't exactly cooperative with each other, let alone Earth. They were also dealing with the Romulans on their own borders and couldn't support Earth in any way other than morally and financially.

On the Defiant point; it doesn't mean it didn't either.
My Fan Fictions
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,252
# 6
03-31-2014, 05:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan218 View Post
The NX was never a warship, true, but it was better at it than the Daedalus-Class, according to the Romulan Wars books.

Also, there's a reason Starfleet didn't do that; the Vulcans wouldn't take an active role in the war and the other races in the Coalition weren't exactly cooperative with each other, let alone Earth. They were also dealing with the Romulans on their own borders and couldn't support Earth in any way other than morally and financially.

On the Defiant point; it doesn't mean it didn't either.
Soft-canon vs Show canon.


Exactly why it should have happened, team building exercise. Perhaps they did for the final decider.

But we cant say about the Defiant either way. All we can say is an NX with better weapons and defences (because its a Mirror ship, they would prioritize those) didn't stand a chance.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 13,477
# 7
03-31-2014, 05:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbrjwrr View Post
Soft-canon vs Show canon.
Yes, it is. I mentioned that in my original post. There isn't enough show canon on the Daedalus-Class to make any conclusions about its tactical abilities.

Quote:
Exactly why it should have happened, team building exercise. Perhaps they did for the final decider.
I believe that's actually how it played out, though I haven't actually finished the books, myself.

Quote:
But we cant say about the Defiant either way. All we can say is an NX with better weapons and defences (because its a Mirror ship, they would prioritize those) didn't stand a chance.
Correct. I'm not disputing that.
My Fan Fictions
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,252
# 8
03-31-2014, 05:39 AM
But we do know enough to say an NX isn't a warship, and if the Daedalus has less warship potential than an NX one has to question what the point was, spam only works if what you spam can at least damage your opponent...


Haven't read the books at all actually...



I appear to have misread your point then, apologies. Still, I doubt Starfleet would just sit there twiddling their thumbs in the weapons department, not when they were still expanding as the Federation expands.

Like the development of bullet based guns, except with phasers. Same fundamental principle/technology, just refined and more effective.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,894
# 9
03-31-2014, 05:52 AM
Actually I feel like you are trying solve a problem that isn't there in the first time.

The NX-Class is clearly inferior the the TOS ships.
And not only the already mentioned "mirror darkly" episode showed that (and it showed it in comparison with a the mirror version of the NX that is seemingly tactically far superior to the main verse version), but also everything else indicates that.

No shields, phase not phaser weapons, inferior engines (Warp 5 in comparison to warp 8), photinoc instead of photon torpedoes.
To me NOTHING indicates it being equal to the TOS timeline (Completely unlike the TOS era compared to TNG, here the only advancements in 100 years were... saucer separation and the ability to beam people directly to sickbay)

That fact that the ship LOOKS apparently newer does not say anything, that comes when you develop a prequel to a 60s series in the 2000s.

And it isn't even necessarily true. While the TOS computers are obviously irredeemable dated, everything else in the TOS connie could easily be more advanced.
The NX class was pretty much submarine like,with its narrow hallways, no decoration ect. Also on the exterior, a blank hull with only the name on it.
The constitiion class (and all her follow ups excluding the Defiant class) was more like an actual cruise ship, white hull, wide corridors, every kind of luxury.
Support more story content in STO
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,133
# 10
03-31-2014, 05:56 AM
Enterprise was shot in 2001, Star Trek in 1966. That's all you need to know.

Seriously, it's not necessary to explain things like different stages and costumes away. All that this stupid retconning nonsense does is to mess with the established stories and invalidating basically everything. For instance, in TOS pilot "The Cage", Starfleet clearly utilizes hand-held laser pistols. It was not used as a colloquial term, they were laser pistols. Behind the scenes the term was used because Rodenberry had no idea of technology and he just used "phasers" later on because someone told him that a laser cannot do what he wanted it to do. Canonically, by the time "The Cage" took place Starfleet still used lasers and replaced the technology with phasers later on. Enterprise COULD have toyed with that, showing us true prequel stories with prequel technology and without Borg and temporal warfare nonsense. But they assumed the audience are idiots and need to see things they know in order to accept that this is Star Trek, which caused the most painful and dumb retconning orgy in the history of film (Another example being "augment virus Klingons" - seriously, just use TNG Klingons, that's what Klingons look like. It doesn't matter if the costumes in TOS looked different, we can get over it. Because we aren't stupid. But no, we need a "story" to go with it which takes a huge dumb on the ingenious play on TOS they did in DS9).

The show screwed up majorly due to terrible writing, the look of the technology used is it's smallest issue.
-> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- -> Click if you prefer the old forum design! <-
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:54 AM.