Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 66
I've been reading STO and other Trek forums for a while. Some of the things said about the Klingons are simply absurd. By some players' own admission, it affects their enjoyment of STO and a faction choice. Others simply enjoy putting Klingons down.

I'll start with some of the worst statements I've read:


"Klingons are nothing but savages (or barbarians) who stole most of their technology from the Hur'q."


The Hur'q were an advanced warp-capable alien race. Yet, the Klingons beat them. Does this compute yet?

Klingons built a ship that can fire through cloak in a much less time than the main frequently recurring Trek factions in the Alpha and Beta quadrants. They also invented a time travel device, seen in a Voyager episode called "Endgame".


"Klingons are just aggressive but not strong or powerful."


TNG episode "Yesterday's Enterprise" showed a timeline of a full-scale Federation-Klingon War, which included Starfleet building dedicated warships and referring to the Enterprise as a 'battleship'. Everyone wore phasers too. UFP was completely surrounded and six months away from surrendering. This is canon.


"Klingons are bad guys!"


What about Starfleet and UFP? DS9 episode "In the Pale Moonlight" showed us their true colors, and they are beyond pale. This was akin to the Reichstag fire started by Hitler. It wasn't just Sisko either. Bashir and Dax were in on it too. All of them were Starfleet officers. How much other tricking does Starfleet do? Then there is Section 31.

Starfleet claims to be "not a military organization", yet Star Trek VI showed us that Starfleet has a JAG Corps. Meanwhile, Starfleet expands its military outposts and border patrols closer to other factions.

There is also this big propaganda that Klingons join Starfleet but Humans don't join the Klingon Empire because "it's crazy!", and because Star Trek treats Starfleet as "civilized" and Klingons as "uncivilized". An STO developer's blog titled "The Anatomy of a Worf" confirms it:


"But the combination of these elements must absolutely still look civilized to represent who Worf is. Color is an important factor too, and here, white seemed to work quite well for the impression we wanted for Worf as a diplomat."


If Worf is "civilized", what are the other Klingons in STO? Notice that Worf has no spikes, claws, hooks, blades or horns on his outfit. Clearly, it's not just the players who form these stereotypes.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,046
# 2
04-01-2014, 03:03 AM
You're trying to fight truthiness with facts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness

Problem is that truthiness disregards facts no matter what.
In doubt people will make a claim that can't be backed up by facts, like the Klingons stole Warp from the Hur'q thing that's not from canon, and then say "Prove me wrong s*cker!"
Of course it can't be disproven because nobody writes an entry that explicitly states what did NOT happen.
So...have fun. Been that there done that.
It's all in the Archived Post section of the forums now.

*EDIT: given the number of posts you have it's probably not too late to say: welcome to the KDF and welcome to the forums *

Last edited by misterde3; 04-01-2014 at 03:06 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 889
# 3
04-01-2014, 03:08 AM
Agreed. Klingons are FAR from barbarians. Just Starfleet propaganda and Fedobears trying to make themselves feel good about faction choice.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,989
# 4
04-01-2014, 04:11 AM
Idiot barbarians don't build the following:

Starships.
Stable Empires spanning quadrants.
High Technology (or most low tech).
Industrial bases. (sorry, rag-ass primitives don't build factories, much less products from those factories).

Even if the Klingons "Stole" warp tech from the Hurq, they had to be intelligent enough to figure out how to build more, work on it, etc. etc.-this is tech well beyond much simpler things, like V-8 engines here.

There's an apocryphal story about China, they bought a 707 back in the sixties or seventies, and tried to reverse-engineer it. They got all of it cosmetically right-but the airframe they built, which was dimensioned exactly the same...
ws too heavy to take off.

Metallurgy is a science, it's a subset of "Materials Science" and you have to know what the bleep you're doing to copy someone else's engineering at that level.


Much less invent your own.

Now, China's no hotbed of barbarism-they're one of the oldest, most civilized places on earth...so, someone wanna explain how, if a civilization that's several multiples older than the U.S. can't copy something as bone-simple as 1950's aircraft designs, how is a bunch of rag-ass barbarians going to copy tech several magnitudes more developed, well enough, to overthrow an interstellar power and render it extinct, then maintain enough stability not to be consumed by the next one-for centuries?

Klingons are NOT stupid. To be frank, to be what they are-in the Star Trek 'Verse, they can't be. It's counter-evolotionary and counter-logical to assume they are.

Put bluntly, they can't function in the manner needed to fill their role in the setting by being backwards barbarians.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Look into Vanilla PvP if you're tired of the endless pursuit of grind, utterly unbalanced selections of geardo-inspired traits, and generally unbalanced and careless 'development' made mostly to turn this game into a second job.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,326
# 5
04-01-2014, 05:07 AM
Preach it brother!

Such nonesense as you mentioned is usually suprred by people that have a completely subjective view of things or choose to view Star Trek from one and only one perspective and not for what it is.
As a fan of Star Trek who observes things in a rather objective manner I can't help but agree with what you and others have mentioned here. In the very least, the Klingon Empire is technologically equal to the Federation.

Anyone that can keep an objective perspective will tell you that while Klingons may be species that thrive on conflict, what a Human would see as brutality and often display agressive behaviors - they're highly developed and intelligent species that control vast amounts of space and have made technological advancements that would put other major factions to shame.
Contrary to what some might want to display them as, the Klignons are a very complex species.
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Commander
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 338
# 6
04-01-2014, 06:40 AM
Ultimately, there's always going to be a contradiction between a warrior monoculture and technological advancement.

In reality, in the long run, a diverse Federation that puts a premium on freedom of thought and action, will always beat a culturally homogenous Empire. Always. It's virtually the entire story of civilization and progress.

Ironically, the situation is reversed on the actual battlefield. History has shown that ranks of disciplined soldiers acting homogenously always beat hordes of mighty warriors acting individually, no matter how warrior-ey and mighty the warriors may be as individuals. Always. Co-ordination and discipline are everything in large-scale battle, but they are totally against the warrior ethos.

Warriors are only good as raiders, scouts and skirmishers - there they have an advantage, but only there.

The reasons for this interesting reversal as follows:- a battle has a clear and simple goal. For a clear and simple goal, homogenous action is most effective.

But a civilization, the development of a culture, has no "goal" as such, and nor do scientific or technological advancement, therefore the bedrock requirement for culture, technological and scientific advancment is diversity and the flowering of individuality. For knowledge to advance, there needs to be a large variety of "trial balloons", many of which will inevitably fail (not just re. culture but also re economics).

If a culture thinks it knows everything from the start, or works only by precedent and tradition, it won't explore all that stuff we don't know we don't know, it won't stumble on new things, and therefore it won't develop complex economies and high technology.

Last edited by gurugeorge; 04-01-2014 at 06:43 AM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 59
# 7
04-01-2014, 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gurugeorge View Post
But a civilization, the development of a culture, has no "goal" as such.
I guess that klingon warriors code is random thing? Or it came with idea of becoming strong people that want to conquer all that oppose them? Klingon civilization does have a goal - to fight and conquer - and majority of their efforts are focused into that. Sure, though time they refined their culture, but premise always stays.

Quote:
and nor do scientific or technological advancement, therefore the bedrock requirement for culture, technological and scientific advancment is diversity and the flowering of individuality.
You want to say scientists develop stuff at random too? Sure, they can stumble on something during their research, but that usually involves them already researching something else - already existing goal, that had to be financed by someone - if not by pay, at least by resources necessary to make research possible. Technological and scientific research is all but random - it's well oiled machine, with occasional "surprise discoveries" usually being a part of some other research.
I dig the idea that there's no some single research goal all scientists try to gravitate to (though there's stuff like Unified Field Theory or Panacea), but there's obvious set of long and short term of research goals at every research institute. I sincerely doubt that scientists get grants just to "research stuff".

Quote:
For knowledge to advance, there needs to be a large variety of "trial balloons", many of which will inevitably fail (not just re. culture but also re economics).
I don't see why trial and error method would be barred from klingon mindset.

Quote:
If a culture thinks it knows everything from the start, or works only by precedent and tradition, it won't explore all that stuff we don't know we don't know, it won't stumble on new things, and therefore it won't develop complex economies and high technology.
Such a culture would never move from their home planet, too. Considering KDF is star-spanning empire that keeps their tech level in line with Feds and romulans, I guess they don't fall into such category.
While klingons might be traditionalists, their culture obviously changed over time. I always saw them as pragmatic culture - if tradition works, it stays, if it doesn't cut in anymore, time to change it. Martok is obvious example - son of commoner who became nobility (he founded his own Great House) and even Chancellor. His example pretty much buried any use of (in his time already outdated) law that only nobles could be officers.
Therefore, klingon culture does change, otherwise they would never be able to survive this long.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 747
# 8
04-01-2014, 12:04 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian

Theres a well written wiki page on where the word barbarian originates..


and how many possible meanings it has.

And as far as the Klingons are concerned.. the Federation are a bunch of ignorant barbarians with no clue as to the reality of the universe.. For Klingons the disparaging term "Lotas Eaters" would also apply to their view of the Federation.


The Klingon are a quadrant spanning civilization with a strong military bent. They're stable, not nearly are "repressive" as some seem to to portray..

The Gorn may have been forcefully amalgamated into the empire, but apparently have a great deal of say in imperial policy..seeing one of the primary ambassador to the Federation from the Empire is a Gorn.

They are cleaver, smart, canny, technologically adept. Highly civilized, and make a point to hold on to values and ideals that have worked for their empire and civilization for several centuries as a star spanning empire. They existed longer then the federation has. The evidence says they react strongly to any threat to their security. They will "saber rattle", but thats part and parcel of the Klingon psyche. "If a thing is valuable to you, will you fight for it?" is at the core of any challenge.

They are no simple culture.. and they are far from being a unitary, homogeneous civilization.

Choosing to live "simply" is a known trait of many civilization in our own history built around any kind of warrior ethos. And apparently a successful one or it wouldn't be as common as it is.

those who would call the Klingon "Barbarians" should be treated like the ignorant savages beating at the gates of civilization that they are.
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Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 889
# 9
04-01-2014, 01:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldkhemaraa View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian

Theres a well written wiki page on where the word barbarian originates..


and how many possible meanings it has.

And as far as the Klingons are concerned.. the Federation are a bunch of ignorant barbarians with no clue as to the reality of the universe.. For Klingons the disparaging term "Lotas Eaters" would also apply to their view of the Federation.


The Klingon are a quadrant spanning civilization with a strong military bent. They're stable, not nearly are "repressive" as some seem to to portray..

The Gorn may have been forcefully amalgamated into the empire, but apparently have a great deal of say in imperial policy..seeing one of the primary ambassador to the Federation from the Empire is a Gorn.

They are cleaver, smart, canny, technologically adept. Highly civilized, and make a point to hold on to values and ideals that have worked for their empire and civilization for several centuries as a star spanning empire. They existed longer then the federation has. The evidence says they react strongly to any threat to their security. They will "saber rattle", but thats part and parcel of the Klingon psyche. "If a thing is valuable to you, will you fight for it?" is at the core of any challenge.

They are no simple culture.. and they are far from being a unitary, homogeneous civilization.

Choosing to live "simply" is a known trait of many civilization in our own history built around any kind of warrior ethos. And apparently a successful one or it wouldn't be as common as it is.

those who would call the Klingon "Barbarians" should be treated like the ignorant savages beating at the gates of civilization that they are.
This. Took the words right outta my mouth
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 49
# 10
04-01-2014, 01:31 PM
Klingons are space Vikings.

Every time I watch the Vikings tv series, I keep thinking if the characters were all Klingons, this show would still make perfect sense.
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