Captain
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 675
# 21
04-03-2014, 09:50 PM
I can understand that some have no problem paying 500 Zen for a respec, and may argue that that high of price is where they think it should be. However, if the price were to be lowered, does that mean that those that liked the higher price would stop buying respecs? Most likely not. It would benefit everyone, even Cryptic.

Personally, I would love to see the price lowered. I am disabled, and therefore have no income. That means that I need to grind Dilithium for everything in the C-Store. I have no problem with this. However, to get a three ship bundle, I need to grind almost 660,000 to over 700,000 Dilithium. For that reason, I could benefit from it. (I am in no way saying I am entitled though, just that it could help).

There are others who are in the same boat, or worse off. Many of them are not disabled, just don't have a lot of resources, or time to play. Between the rep grinds, and any special grinds, like summer, winter, anniversary, and the mirror, it can be very hard for a them to grind a whole weeks worth of Dilithium to get a single respec for one character.

I have 5 characters, and managed to get enough Dilithium saved up to get a respec recently when they did the sale. However, it only saved 15%. That will be the only respec I will be able to do. All of my other characters will need to make do with what they have.

I know that I can test my build on Tribble, but a lot of times I have been in Tribble and had a mission queued for about 45 mins asking for someone to join so I could test a build. (In fact, I have been queued for almost 10 mins on Holodeck waiting to get into an STF after the removal of the hourlies).

So, Tribble is good, but it can also cost precious time just waiting to test out a new build. However, if I could get the respec for around 125 Zen each, then I could afford to respec my other 4 characters. That would be 500 Zen that I would otherwise not buy. Plus, if I change my ship, and need another build, I could afford another one.

Just a few thoughts.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 926
# 22
04-03-2014, 09:52 PM
If the difference between 6 investments and 9 investments in a captain skill made any sort of noticeable difference then I would want some sort of skill spec swapping implemented. But hold on guys. Wait a sec. This realy isn't necisery.

You know that you get diminishing returns as you invest in skills I am sure. For the first three investments in a skill you get 18 skill points per investment. For the next three investments you get 10 points per investment, and for the last three investments you get just 5 points per investment.

So taking a skill to 9 investments over 6 gets you a whopping 15 extra points. That's a big deal right?

Actually it isn't. Skill points in STO really don't do very much in small numbers. Hear are some examples:

15 points in graviton generators adds 0.22km to the radius of a Gravity Well 3
15 points in particle generators adds 10.9 points of damage to each tick of Gravity Well 3
15 points in attack paterns adds 1% to the damage bonus of Omega 3
15 points in sensors adds 0.4% to the stealth sight buff from sensor scan
15 points in energy weapons specialization adds 0.3% to your critical hit chance
15 points in subspace decompiler adds 0.7 seconds to the duration of viral matrix 3

Now you might be looking at those numbers and thinking; 'Golly I am never going to be able to tell the difference between a player who has maxed a captain skill and one who has only taken it to 6.' But you would be wrong. You could tell the difference if you spent a lot of time testing with a parser.

So the question you have to ask yourself is, are you going to spend a lot of time testing with a parser? If the answer to that question is probably not, you don't need to respec for different ships and loadouts.

Just give your captain a generalist build taking no captain skills past 6 investments and you will never be able to tell the difference... unless you really really like spending time parsing.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,945
# 23
04-03-2014, 09:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnikku View Post
Not really. That was just a hilarious moment of blatant presumptuousness on your part.
There's no presumptions going on. You can get all the respecs you want for free. You just choose not to take advantage of the options that provide them for free.



Quote:
I guess between that and Tribble there isn't much point in respec tokens at all then. Cryptic will hardly ever sell one with this strategy.

There will always be players that choose instant gratification over putting in the time to get what they want for free.



Quote:
The concept of charging a little less for such a simple service people could use regularly instead of a much higher price people only use once in a blue moon seems to have gone completely over your head.
And the concept that maybe Cryptic doesn't want people to regularly respec their characters every other day so they deliberately set the dil grind to take several days, and the price just low enough to be affordable to people that really need it but yet still high enough to keep people like you from buying it frequently seems to have gone completely over your head.

Not everything Cryptic does is about making a buck as fast as possible.


Quote:
But don't be telling me Cryptic is unwilling to consider and evaluate player feed back on these matters, or any matters within the game. The upcoming removal of several respec tokens in other parts of the game proves otherwise.
Please quote exactly where I said Cryptic is unwilling to listen to player feedback. Oh that's right I never said that.

The truth is Cryptic constantly listens to players feedback and they also constantly choose not to implement what the players suggest for reasons they frequently refuse to explain.
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Commander
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 345
# 24
04-03-2014, 10:26 PM
Nothing is free, time is money however you cut it.

However, with respecs, while Tribble is a decent workaround, really they ought to have something like they had in Champions, where you can go to a testing hall and while you're in the hall you can respec as much as you like and there are dummies and various testing apparatus, and even a basic encounter simulator.

They could do something like that in this game with the holodeck concept.

But personally, I've never understood the idea that respecs should cost anything. They should always be free, or cost very, very little. The two arguments against this, the RPG argument ("choices have consequences") and the cookie-cutter argument ("everyone would respec to the FOTM whenever it changed") just seem quaint to me nowadays.

People have such little time or patience these days, and MMOs have such little sense of being virtual worlds, that you might as well just let rip and let people have what they want. Older game design concepts like balance, choices-have-consequences, etc., just seem antiquated, they come from an older world, from the past, long gone. Sad but true.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,176
# 25
04-03-2014, 10:32 PM
http://home.comcast.net/~amicus/Skil...%20Effects.htm

here, the TABLE

also, the consoles add definitely more power than skill points.
there is no need to fill more than 6 ranks in every skill, apart from weapons perhaps..

you also lvl a toon with a PLAN (normally)

and - it is possible to play the game on lvl 50 without a single skill point or only with everything at 3 ranks.

on the other hand, i can imagine how 500 zen could be much for some folks and cryptic could think about lowering the skill respec to

skill respec - 250 Zen, 50 LOBI or 20.000.000 EC
skill, traits respec - 500 Zen, 100 LOBI or 40.000.000 EC

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Last edited by duaths1; 04-03-2014 at 10:34 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,108
# 26
04-03-2014, 11:27 PM
It would have been really nice if each toon could have a separate skill tree/ship. For example, if I switch to escort then I select skill tree which suits tactical build, or if I select cruiser then select skill tree which suits cruiser. Kinda like loadout.

This per ship skill tree could have been unlocked using zen.

Downside is that it will involve some work in cryptic side, and this means it may lead to some nasty bugs with any update. It is likely possible some ferengi clown in their financial department sitting in a decision making chair may not see it very profitable.
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Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,163
# 27
04-04-2014, 12:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sopwithsnipe View Post
There's no presumptions going on. You can get all the respecs you want for free. You just choose not to take advantage of the options that provide them for free. There will always be players that choose instant gratification over putting in the time to get what they want for free.
I do use the options available to me in converting dil to zen. That doesn't mean it's free. As a poster before you mentioned, time is money no matter how you spin it. The question isn't whether there is an option to buy a respec without using actual cash, the question is if the current price of 500 zen is doing players and even Cryptic the most good. I don't think it is. If you think it's perfect you're free to argue that point, hence the purpose of this discussion. But let's not spin it into an angry old man liberal whipper snapper sense of entitlement tangent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sopwithsnipe View Post
And the concept that maybe Cryptic doesn't want people to regularly respec their characters every other day so they deliberately set the dil grind to take several days, and the price just low enough to be affordable to people that really need it but yet still high enough to keep people like you from buying it frequently seems to have gone completely over your head.

Not everything Cryptic does is about making a buck as fast as possible.
Maybe Cryptic wanted us to pay 500 zen for two boff slots at one point too, but that wasn't working out for the players or Cryptic alike. I could charge $200 for my cheap microsoft mouse on ebay, that doesn't mean it is worth that much nor does it mean I'm doing myself any favors by doing so. As for the last point, you and I will just have to disagree over that one. The Scimitar for instance is a very overpowered ship that is one of Cryptics best sellers, even though that core selling point has more or less taken a dump on balance and value of every other ship in the game in comparison. Not exactly good for the state of the game, but great for fast bucks none the less.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sopwithsnipe View Post
Please quote exactly where I said Cryptic is unwilling to listen to player feedback.
Here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sopwithsnipe View Post
Apparently Cryptic feels the pittance they'd make off of us if they lowered the price of respecs isn't worth the effort because this isn't the first time someone has come to complain that prices are too high and they can't be bothered to get what they want for free by grinding Dil.
You make it sound like Cryptics is so utterly inflexible and unwilling to change or reevaluate pricing or the practicality of the c store or services that attempting to stir up any kind of discussion or provide any feedback is basically a waste of time when I plain as day told you that isn't necessarily true. They've reevaluated pricing on things like boff slots when they weren't working out. They've reevaluated the practicality of respec tokens on things like traits and reputation racials and have moved in a direction that made the token system obsolete.

I suppose if I had made a thread a month ago asking Cryptic to not make us choose between all space traits or ground traits because it leaves us gimped in the other aspect of the game that you would insist that apparently Cryptic thinks players should actually gimp themselves in ground, unless they are willing to fork over the dil for a trait respec every time they swap between space and ground portions. Clearly if they converted their dil to zen they could pay for a couple, though certainly not enough to be relevant. Yet here we are. That archaic system is on it's way out. Cryptic listened to us and we will be the better for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sopwithsnipe View Post
The truth is Cryptic constantly listens to players feedback and they also constantly choose not to implement what the players suggest for reasons they frequently refuse to explain.
They have a thousand of voices giving their opinions and ideas on what to do with the game. Obviously they could not implement them all. But some do. Which brings us to the purpose of this message board in the first place; discussion.
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Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 764
# 28
04-04-2014, 01:01 PM
i think the respec being $5 keeps silver players from actually fixing their builds.

it would also be nice if we could have more than one build(science in particular would benefit greatly from this).
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,895
# 29
04-04-2014, 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by senatorvreenak View Post
Yes STO did charge for respecs.
But you could also still respec completely for free by earning Merit points, which you were given for virtually every mission.

Kind of sad how a lot of peopl got screwed over big time with the dilithium conversion when STO went free to play.
People who had enough merits for like 10 respecs didn't even get enough dilithium to buy C-Points for even one respec.
Indeed


The thing with the respec is... even with tribbel testing you need a long time to get it right.

With the old skill tree I did invest A LOT of work to getting it to work as close to perfect as possible including fine tuning.
That wasted up all my free respecs from leveling on my fed eng, obviously, because while I DID test on tribble for hours before doing any change.

With the new tree... well I didn't get my now "wasted" free specs back and only had one chance.
So I skilled whatever I felt was right and am rolling with that since then. Needless to say that this spec isn't very good.
And its not that I would starve if I'd spent that zen, but I refuse to put that amount of money into something that has clearly no relation in value.
Also I don't have the time for that amount of testing any more. So to get it right I would certainly need far more then 1 respec. So I'll keep that bad build- it could be worst after all.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,945
# 30
04-04-2014, 01:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenicius View Post
i think the respec being $5 keeps silver players from actually fixing their builds.
Yeah that's it, except for the fact that silver's (and everyone else) can grind dil for a week or so and get a respec to fix their builds for free.
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