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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 81
02-09-2010, 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardein View Post
If Feds are worried about Burst DPS your tactics will not optimally suit your ships and extra science options..

I am assuming that this is dealing with T3 and T4 "balance" issues? You are seriously wanting to put cannons on a Federation cruiser?!?

I am thinking there must be quite a few escort captains trying their hand at cruisers once they find that escorts cannot survive more than a minute in any PvP battle if outfitted like what had been optimal for PvE..

Do not try to match Klingon ships' Burst DPS. That is not where your strengths are or should be. Survive the initial strike as best as you can and support each other. You will win.

You can all but autofire your way to victory by science and engineering buffing the ship under focus fire from the Klingons. How long did it take for the target to pop RSP or another damage resist? You know the first Klingon target will be an escort (if there are any) or science ship. How long did it take your fleet to get extend shields or similar onto the ship being targeted? Did you have the friendly selected even before the Klingon strike? If you are scrambling to target an enemy as your initial response while you have not buffed your ally and you are a Fed engineering or science vessel I would not want you on my team - but I see it in battle after battle.

BoPs, the only real science ship option for the Klingons, have NO staying power and can be quickly driven out of a battle. If you can counter the two or three science major debuffs the Klingons may have available in any one battle the Klingons have a very tough time disengaging when the battle turns against them and will not be able to recover during a sustained engagement. Try keeping that single shield facing up on your Klingon cruiser because you need to keep your weapon arc on your target while it can turn lazy circles to distributes the damage you deal more efficiently.. it is infuriating.

Klingon cruisers can buff themselves to great DPS if they spec for it and give up other areas of strength but they also start with the DPS of an escort 1 tier lower than they are.. that isn't exactly overwhelming.
"but.. but that means i have to work as a team i cant run around and kill everything
it means i have to realize that my cruiser is a deicated tank/healer and should be worrying less about my dps and more about healing my escort buddies

it means that i cant get that pesky vorcha out from behind me in a 1v1 but i can tank him all day and night if im set up right but that means id actulay have to be set up for pvp and know what im doing

wah i want to be able to have 1 ship with 1 setup and be able to do everything"

this sarcasium is intended to point out the flaws in most of the people that will comment on this post
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 82
02-09-2010, 08:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Savaage
this sarcasium is intended to point out the flaws in most of the people that will comment on this post
T4 K Cruiser has more guns (7) then T4 F Escort (6). Also Rapid Fire cooldown is pretty low, it isn't really burst DPS its constant high dps. T4 K Cruiser has only about 6% less hull then T4 F Cruiser, and 100% more turn rate.

Now where am I wrong again? I am not, this was posted multiple times but Klingon have very selective memory.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 83
02-09-2010, 08:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bos22
T4 K Cruiser has more guns (7) then T4 F Escort (6). Also Rapid Fire cooldown is pretty low, it isn't really burst DPS its constant high dps. T4 K Cruiser has only about 6% less hull then T4 F Cruiser, and 100% more turn rate.

Now where am I wrong again? I am not, this was posted multiple times but Klingon have very selective memory.
its simple its a vorcha it may not have the turn rate of a galaxy but its still an oceanliner the only ship that should stay in the front cone of a vorcha is a galaxy which can tank it and lets look at what we give up for using your full cannon fit(silly for any compenent kligon cruiser) in t4 if i want to mount heavy cannons(only cannons worth having) it means i have a 45 degree cone of fire so lets say i have 3 heavys and a torp up front with a turret and another torp in the back compaired to a glalaxys 2 beams and 1 torp in he front and back

that means if you are in my 45 degree cone i do signifigant dps if your in the other 315 degrees i can hit you with 1 turret and maybe my torp

as perviuolsy stated escorts and sci vessles have highe turnig rates theres no reason for them to be in my 45 degree cone after more than 20 seconds and if the team cant keep them alive for 20 seconds you feds arent doing your job

now that leaves galaxys

yes i can out manuver a galaxy so i can keep hitting 2 of its sheild facings as it if smart is wagliing between the 2 facings to spread out the dmg while at the same time healing himself while his escort/sci buddies that he was heal 20 seconds ago are now shooting me in the back or side and i wont be able to do anything about it

or lets say we have a good galaxy player so right as i hit rapid fire he hits eavsin and runs around to my side while eventulay i will get my 45 degree cone pointed at him again hes been pounding on me with contious dps and over time he will out dps me if all i have is cannons simply bc i wont beable to keep my guns on target

which is why when i play my fed when i see a Klingon cruiser in an all cannon setup i laugh and then enjoy kill them over and over

its simple and all cannon vorcha vs a beam galaxy the vorcha has higher burst dps yes the galaxy will have much much higher dps over time due to fireing archs in a premade vs premade which is the only place to truly test the balance
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 84
02-09-2010, 08:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rothnang
Sure, it only means something in lining up all your ships to instantly kill someone right out of cloak...
if you cant hit RSP to get them off of you at start of a match, start using keybinds.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 85
02-09-2010, 08:54 AM
Obviously the cruiser has more weapons slots than an escort - same for feds. They need more weapons to cover a wider angle - else you'd find a dead spot and sit there shooting.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 86
02-09-2010, 08:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Savaage
i
as perviuolsy stated escorts and sci vessles have highe turnig rates theres no reason for them to be in my 45 degree cone after more than 20 seconds and if the team cant keep them alive for 20 seconds you feds arent doing your job
May be you need to learn to play Klingons, tell me how da hell your turn rate is going to help to get out of my 45" cone when I am shooting at you from 6-7km and my speed is at slow. I'll punch tractor beam when you are going to cross 5km zone.

Sci T4 Vessel turn rate = 12, T4 K Cruiser = 10. Yes its really HUGE difference.

My T4 cruiser is going to have 3 turrets on rapid fire which is enough to kill on their own.

/sarcasm.

EDIT:

Also there are cannons with 180", which are still more powerful then dual beams. Cannons > Beams anytime. Fed can't have too many beams since it drains power very fast.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 87
02-09-2010, 09:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PotatoOverdose View Post
I don't understand something here... how is a ship to ship comparison made mute by a team dynamic?
If every ship in a team

Let me rephrase my original post to fit a team dynamic:

TBH, i would trade all of my team's 10 ships' extra hull for cloaking devices and maneverability. I mean seriously, what is with this fricken bullshlt about using "extra" hull on every fed ship to justify better turning on every ship, increased maneuverability in general on every ship, a fricken cloaking device on every ship, and the ability to use cannons on all of the klingon teams' ships.

You know what that extra hull gives us? An extra 3-5 cannon shots or *maybe* , if we're really lucky, an extra torpedo hit on every ships' hull. You know why that means jack **** (aside from the obvious reason that one torpedo or 3-5 cannon shots mean nothing)? Once your shields go down (and stay down) and you start taking hull damage, its GG. So extra hull means nothing. Also, with better turning, you can use your shield arcs more effectively giving you a better tank on every ship.

I'm not crying for a nerf here, I'm just pointing out that saying "extra fed hull on every ship justifies all the stuff klinks get on every ship" is bullshlt. Getting tired of seeing that.

The only time when hull is worth a **** is when you're pressing the attack with an escort and you need to keep your forward arc facing the enemy to finish them off. And this doesn't apply to a broadsiding cruiser for obvious reasons.


See what I did there? When every Klingon ship has better maneuverability, a cloak, better turning (which directly improves tanking abillity btw), and the option to fit cannons, it is bullshlt to say that feds balance things out by getting some extra hull on all of their ships. It is not looking at it from a narrow 1v1 perspective. On the contrary, my post looks at every klingon and fed ship and team in STO that will ever exist. You can't get any broader than that and stay in the confines of STO.

Also, to drive the point home:
Once again, are you looking at 1 vs 1 or within a team dynamic. 1 vs 1 means very little in the PvP environment STO puts us in. Maintain a diverse mixed-role fleet(not hard for the Klinks) where players actually play their role, and then you see your strength as the Klinks. The more Klinks the Klink players teach this lesson to, the better off the Klinks will be in all tiers.

See how that didn't change the content of your post at all? Teamwork works for both sides equally well. Its just that the trade off for klinks isn't there. They get a bunch of cool stuff and feds get hull...I mean, hull YAY!...It makes our ships look so fierce ...and ......manly ....those ....torpedoes ...will ......never .........know .....what ......hit.....them......yes.......hull......
Then you shuld have chosen Klingon...we obviously suite your style of combat. If you cant recognize, embrace and adapt to the equipment's strengths and needs, its your failure. I wont try and take a dump truck and make it a tank. i wont try to take a Destroyer and make it a battleship, I wont try and take a FW190 and make it a Hurricane.

As a warior/combatant...you learn the tools of the trade, not the other way around. If they give you a rifle you learn to use it not like a sub-machine gun. In thi case, STO has blessed you with the option to choose from a truly divese set of tools...you my friend need only choose the tool that actually suites you...how lucky! If the tool that suites you and your style doesnt stroke your ego enough and you choose to not select it, you have two choices. Try and pideon hole the tool into a role it wasnt intended for and lose...or adapt yourself to the tool and succeed...which one will your ego like more?

See my friend, Im a BoP Captain...why? Because it suites my style of combat...we looked at eachother and knew from th estart it was love. I havent looked at and wont touch anything else in game. I knew it was the tool for me before the game was even announced. I fly BoPs like BoPs. I use BoPs like they like and need to be used. I dropped my ego and my preconceived notions of my own grander and totally gave myself to the BoP...because thats when it'll give me everything it has.

What am I...Im not a one man Fleet, the BoP was never intended to be, so I dont try. Contrary to popular belief me and my BoP is support. Now they type of support I provide is up to me(thats the beauty of the BoP), but I never go into an engagement thinking I have to be hero right here, right now.

So what am I in my BoP...Im nothing but its strengths...period, nothing less, nothing more...Im totally out of the equation. I dont try to make my ship what I want it to be...I built her to be everything she already is and wants to be.

Feds need to learn that with theor ships...especially because they are so role specific. Their strength is in their specializations...your weakness is in not recognizing it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bos22
Let see cruiser has more guns then the fed escort in T4.
The T4 Klingon cruiser does have more guns.. by one mount in the rear arc. And mounts lower "mark" level cannons than can be equipped on the T4 escort, correct? (this was the case last time I checked - please provide a correction if I am wrong on that.)

So you are using the rear arc of the escort to argue that Klingon cruisers have higher DPS?

If you are then mounting beams or cannons in the rear arc of the Klingon cruiser then they won't all be bearing on your current target at the same time.. and turrets are not exactly Spike DPS powerhouses. You are then also needing to spec the ship and skills to buff beams, cannons, and torpedoes in order go for DPS or it still won't match the escort with it's higher marked cannons. You are taking into consideration the number of weapons that can fire at once and considering their cool-downs and the extra Tactical BO position on the escort - at a higher rank than the one on the cruiser - which can add another damage buff? There are many factors that come into play on that argument that outweigh that extra weapon mount.

Klingon cruisers can put more forward fire down compared to it's Federation cruiser counterpart but it is hardly an imbalance. The trade off of a bit of DPS for the tactical options from another increased rank science BO in the fleet works well if used effectively. That extra sliver of Federation hull has also saved my bacon many times by surviving that one or two extra volleys while RSP was recycling or until I was under an Extend Shield, Engineering Team, and Science Team buff to carry on the fight. Higher tier PvP just isn't set up to reward pure DPS like PvE. There is way too much skill countering needed for that to equate to a loss on the Federation side.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 89
02-09-2010, 09:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardein View Post
The T4 Klingon cruiser does have more guns.. by one mount in the rear arc. And mounts lower "mark" level cannons than can be equipped on the T4 escort, correct? (this was the case last time I checked - please provide a correction if I am wrong on that.)
Don't believe so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardein View Post
So you are using the rear arc of the escort to argue that Klingon cruisers have higher DPS?

If you are then mounting beams or cannons in the rear arc of the Klingon cruiser then they won't all be bearing on your current target at the same time.. and turrets are not exactly Spike DPS powerhouses.

Turrets with rapid fire has more dps then a dual beam. Really my setup of 2 dual beams in front and 3 turrets on the back melts faces big time (science vessel). L2P



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardein View Post
You are then also needing to spec the ship and skills to buff beams, cannons, and torpedoes in order go for DPS or it still won't match the escort with it's higher marked cannons. You are taking into consideration the number of weapons that can fire at once and considering their cool-downs and the extra Tactical BO position on the escort - at a higher rank than the one on the cruiser - which can add another damage buff? There are many factors that come into play on that argument that outweigh that extra weapon mount.
Buff beams, oh wait all of them are broken. Now I start to question which game are you playing. You just need 1 TO = high yield, rapid fire.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardein View Post
Klingon cruisers can put more forward fire down compared to it's Federation cruiser counterpart but it is hardly an imbalance. The trade off of a bit of DPS for the tactical options from another increased rank science BO in the fleet works well if used effectively. That extra sliver of Federation hull has also saved my bacon many times by surviving that one or two extra volleys while RSP was recycling until I was under an Extend Shield, Engineering Team, and Science Team buff to carry on the fight. Higher tier PvP just isn't set up to reward pure DPS like PvE. There is way too much skill countering needed for that to equate to a loss on the Federation side.
I completed T4 yesterday and doing T5 on feds and T1 on klings. I think I know a bit how to play.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 90 Settle Down, Beavis..
02-09-2010, 10:50 AM
Wow - Bitter much? I just love forum tough guys. ..or maybe I am just getting that impression from you L2P and "which game are you playing" comments..

You do realize that the OP complaint was that there was an imbalance because the T4 Klingon cruiser had the DPS of an Fed escort and was not giving up enough to get it, right? I guess you can just shelve that argument and instead fly your Klingon T4 science ship when you reach Commander and have it's godly DPS and the extra higher ranked science BO to spam Viral Matrix or keep Science Team active and the like..

My point was primarily that good use of skills tactics decide more top level PvP matches than DPS - and to examine all of the variables in addition to DPS before calling for balance changes. The Federation fleet already has the upper hand in an overall power balance. I am sure with your experience you know how useful that extra science BO can be to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bos22
Turrets with rapid fire has more dps then a dual beam. Really my setup of 2 dual beams in front and 3 turrets on the back melts faces big time (science vessel). L2P
Nice setup find with the turrets btw - which can be placed on only Klingon cruisers.. oh, oops. So you are arguing that your science ship damage output is overpowered when compared to the DPS of the Fed escort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bos22
Buff beams, oh wait all of them are broken. Now I start to question which game are you playing. You just need 1 TO = high yield, rapid fire.
Beam buffs need to be fixed to keep turrets from being the better option which really makes no sense - I agree with you on that. It is also good thing I won't need the escort advantage of that LtCmdr TO slot for Attack Pattern Omega as I should never encounter Viral Matrix at T4 and Science Team is working so wonderfully for your teammates to counter it on you anyway..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bos22
I completed T4 yesterday and doing T5 on feds and T1 on klings. I think I know a bit how to play.
Though you do have some great observations here, I have noticed that it does not take skill to level in STO..
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