Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Klingon PVP Feedback
02-08-2010, 03:27 PM
I am a an avid PVPer and participate in every single game where it is possible because I enjoy out-playing the other players with skill, strategy, and so on.

Part of that strategy is not just the actual fighting, but the skill and power selections beforehand. Defining your role in combat.

Now in lower level PVP, I found it highly enjoyable because quite often you'd get in situations where you fought enemy ships 1 on 1, 2 on 1, or 2 on 2. In those situations, your personal skill, power selections, and power use choices actually matter and can turn the tide of a fight either way. It was a lot more fun and enjoyable.

But the higher level in PVP you get, the more it degrades into a complete lack of skill, tactics, strategy, or anything else. Fedballs require no skill at all to execute, they just clump up next to each other and spam the space bar to auto-target and obliterate the first klingon that decloaks.

Power selection, skill, strategy, tactics, all of it goes out the window when a fedball is made. Once it happens, all that is left in the game is simply: Everyone attack the same target. That's it. That is the extent of the pvp tactics when a fedball is created. Your skills no longer matter except offensive abilities because even stacking defensive skills for yourself, or support skills to heal/repair others, they die almost instantly when in range of a fedball, there is no way to keep them up. And the fedball just cycles target to target and hoses them all down in just a couple of seconds each.

I just wish the PVP system had a little more depth than this, because every arena match turns into the same thing.

This leads to another problem and that is the fact klingons level up almost exclusively through PVP. The only other way they have to level is a VERY inefficient and slow grind of the kill 10 fed groups in space, with 5 minutes resets between each credit you get. So PVP for klingons isn't exclusively for the fun or something to do, but it's also part of the grind to level up. Sure you try to have fun too obviously, but most people are looking for the fastest way to level up at the same time and that always means Space Arena battles because they're over in like a quarter of the time it takes to win a capture and hold map.

Capture and Hold is a little more of a "Balanced" pvp zone where strategy comes back into play, but the reward vs time involved simply isn't worth it if you're trying to level up. I do it myself once in a while just for a change of scenery and to have a little more fun, but the majority of the time I skip over it because it's time consuming and I want to level up faster.

So since all arena matches degrade into fed balls, and arena is the best way to level, it makes for a frustrating experience.

PVP would be much more enjoyable if you could queue for smaller scale battles like 2v2 and 3v3 where there are more tactics involved than "everyone shoot this guy at the same time" and where your defensive powers might actually do something. As it stands now, they don't, and you can only survive if you're fighting bad players who aren't focus firing.

Another issue klingons have is the fact because the only way to level up is through pvp, you get a lot of people just cloak and AFK through it, leaving klingons at a disadvantage.

Feds don't have this problem nearly as much because they mostly just PVP for recreation, not so much the leveling aspect, but for klingons it's shocking how many are afk.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
02-08-2010, 03:34 PM
You are an avid PvPer but you have not yet discovered the most basic idea of PvP? Strenght in numbers. Find yourself a fleet, get together with likeminded people and work out a set of skills that will pave the way for your victories. Skills, strategy and teamwork become extremely important as you move up the tiers. Defensive powers are a force multiplier that increase survivability of the whole team.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
02-08-2010, 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GnawLF
You are an avid PvPer but you have not yet discovered the most basic idea of PvP? Strenght in numbers. Find yourself a fleet, get together with likeminded people and work out a set of skills that will pave the way for your victories. Skills, strategy and teamwork become extremely important as you move up the tiers. Defensive powers are a force multiplier that increase survivability of the whole team.
Someone apparently has never seen a high level federation fedball...

You aren't understanding this, you can't break them if they know what they're doing. There is nothing you can do.

If jam targeting sensors caused them all to lose their lock so they couldn't mindlessly spacebar spam klingons down one at a time, it would be an awesome way to break them, but it doesn't work that way. There is literally nothing you can do against them. Klingons all join a team together, establish a kill order, wait till everyone is in firing range, then all decloak and start firing simultaneously. They still lose anyway. Their ships are just too flimsy and weak to offset the cloak advantage, so feds that have any semblance of a clue of what they're doing tear through them like toilet paper.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
02-08-2010, 03:50 PM
I'm losing track here, which side is OP now?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
02-08-2010, 04:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meat_Machine
I'm losing track here, which side is OP now?
People only think Klingons are OP because when they don't know what they're doing, because if they're wandering around by themselves, a bunch of klingons will decloak and **** them.

The fedball is the equivalent of getting your entire team in a first person shooter to just sit in a corner somewhere and just camp and wait for enemies to come to you and blow them away instantly as soon as they come around the corner. The only difference is, at least FPS has ways to counter it like throwing a grenade in there to make them scatter. Theres nothing in STO to prevent, discourage, or stop a fedball.

Gravity wells do too little damage, jam target sensors doesnt make them lose target lock. They're free to sit there spamming space bar while watching TV and still confident in the fact they will win.

Klingons only win when the feds dont know how to adjust shields or run off by themselves out of the group.

I win about 80-90% of the games I queue for just by virtue of fed players usually having a team mate or two that doesn't know what they're doing and runs off by themselves, getting killed then putting their team at a numerical disadvantage. It just annoys me that most of the time when they win, it wasn't because they were better players or employed better tactics, it was simply because they did the fedball.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
02-08-2010, 04:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysRemember
People only think Klingons are OP because when they don't know what they're doing,
because if they're wandering around by themselves, a bunch of klingons will decloak and **** them.
Oh dear, here comes the rage. When I say this, people tell me I am trolling - but I think I am just stating the obvious. I kill people who don't react, don't adjust shields, don't appear to use any power except beam overload.

Quote:

The fedball is the equivalent of getting your entire team in a first person shooter to just sit in a corner somewhere and just camp and wait for enemies to come to you and blow them away instantly as soon as they come around the corner. The only difference is, at least FPS has ways to counter it like throwing a grenade in there to make them scatter. Theres nothing in STO to prevent, discourage, or stop a fedball.
If the fish are going to get in a barrel for you, seems like the right thing to do is shoot, doesn't it?

I think the best thing for everyone to do is realize how little experience they have with the game, and set about to learn. That can't happen without good teams. As the level of play goes up, so will we learn more about what is possible.

What seems unbeatable today, is a loss tomorrow. This has already happened several times throughout beta.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
02-08-2010, 04:16 PM
TBH it is easy to bust up the fed ball.

The problem is this, almost ALL Klingons are set to max DPS, skills and all revolve around it. They have one mindset, zerg kill the escort. Then suddenly it is 5-0 blue team and Klingons wonder what jsut happened.


Klingons have alot to learn still, especially that Klingons do have support classes and abilities. Once we start seeing more Klingons speccing support and gearing their cruisers accordingly, the feds will have to work on a new strategy besides the fedball.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
02-08-2010, 04:17 PM
It only becomes a loss tomorrow when the devs change how it works and nerf mechanics.

All ships, on both sides, do too much damage vs shield strength available. It's not that big of a deal in small scale fights because you can offset it with abilities, but when its 5 focusing on 1, they pop immediately even with RSF, EPtS II, and sci team popped for self shield heals as well as extra mitigation, they still die almost immediately.

That is why using things like RSP is so popular, its the only way to stay alive a little longer under fed ball focus firing. Even using it, the bleed through to your hull kills you extremely fast anyway, even though you never take their shields down. I was PVPing on my fed admiral and killed klingon carriers using this repeatedly even though I never got through their shields.

The game needs adjustment. This isn't whinning or QQ, it's just not very fun at the moment because you either win because of the other team's stupidity or you lose because they sit there in a group and don't move at all. That isn't skill, it isn't a challenge, and it isn't fun. PVP should be about action and reaction, adapting, and so on.

It needs tweaking. The fact I win most battles I queue for doesn't prove anything statistically about whether or not something is overpowered or broken or just not fun.

Things will be buffed and nerfed forever throughout a game's life span, no need to be snide and sarcastic about it because it's a fact of life. The PVP needs work.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
02-08-2010, 05:20 PM
Or maybe, this is how they want it. Maybe attrition is something that is acceptable.

I feels fast to us, but maybe that is how combat is expected to be?
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