Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Generic PVP Ramblings
02-09-2010, 09:23 PM
I just felt like discussing some PVP and my opinions and impressions of it thus far.

At tier 1, Klingons have a distinct advantage over Federation which i'm sure no one really disputes. The firepower of the bird of prey is grossly higher than a miranda with similar levels of durability, or at least with the BOP's potential to jack up their survivability to greater than that of a miranda through it's universal stations. This gives klingons superior firepower AND defense. Feds don't stand a chance really unless they are in an organized team fighting a disorganized one, even then it's tough.

At tier 2, Federation has a distinct advantage of Klingons. The damage potential of klingons is only slightly increased from what it was at Tier 1, but the defensive and survivability of federation cruisers ramps up at a greater factor than the klingon damage increases. Furthermore, feds also gain access to escorts of their own which deal equal damage to the klingon ships. All klingon ships also have inferior health compared to their federation counterparts. Winning in a t2 match really depends on which faction works as a team better, or if they work together as a team equally, it basically boils down to feds always winning because of their advantages. Cloak is no longer a factor as it becomes useless once combat is initiated, feds pile up in a defensive ball and wait to be attacked, completely negating the benefit of cloak.

At tier 3, Klingons finally get their own cruisers and the balance between factions becomes closer, although still favored to the side of the federation. Klingon ships all have inferior durability to their federation counterparts, presumably to offset the advantage of cloak, which is a non-factor since fed tactics are always a fedball it makes cloaking irrelevant. So it basically means they get the durability downside without anything to offset it. The only exception to this is the fact klingon cruisers can mount cannons, which somewhat balances it out vs opposing cruisers, but still leaves the other klingon ships at a disadvantage.

Tier 4 is about the same as tier 3.

Tier 5 things get a little interesting because of the introduction of the carrier. Now i've seen carriers be overpowered because their captains were exploiting bugs, but i've also seen carriers get blown away rapidly by the feds. The carrier is a strange variable to throw into the PVP element because it's a lot different from other ships, i'm still undecided on whether or not having one helps your team or hurts it because i've seen it go both ways. Now I have personally destroyed them with my fed admiral, but unfortunately my klingon isn't at t5 just yet so I can't comment from that perspective, but soon.

Anyway, Cryptic announced they will Eventually add Cruisers for Klingons at T2, so that will help salvage it from being the tragedy to level through that it is now for klingons. As for T1, not really sure how they can salvage that for feds. Mirandas can already equip cannons which would put them on par with BOPs damage-wise but few do, it probably has to do with their turn rates. So perhaps making the miranda a bit more agile and give it a better turn rate would help solve this problem in T1.

Now let's have a serious discussion here about cloak. A lot of people just assume it makes klingons overpowered innately but that isn't the case. The only advantage of cloak is that you don't know when an attack is coming exactly, but in a fedball you're already in a defensive posture ready to repel it and know it's coming eventually so there really is no benefit there. The klingons get a tremendous survivability disadvantage because of cloak, making all their ships squishier. Now in an ideal world, I suppose the extra damage you get in from the "suprise" factor of attacking a ship first before it targets and attacks you back, this might equal out. But in a fedball, the math doesn't scale the same way. You might get in an extra hit or two on a single ship, but your inferior survivability means once all 5 fed ships lock on, you will die faster than the enemy ship with all 5 klingons locked on. The inferior durability means feds can use phasers effectively and still do similar damage, in a relative sense, as a klingon using cannons and yet get much more coverage, giving them yet another huge tactical advantage. This is why fedballs are so effective.

Now the solution to this problem isn't obvious. it would be tactically foolish to leave your allies in a fedball and go off by yourself because you'd be picked off one by one and killed.

I equate arena PVP to be more like Hyenas hunting Wildebeest. Individually the wilebeest is a lot stronger, but it can be brought down by the pack if it's weak or gets too far from it's heard. But a pack of hyenas charging at a heard of wildebeest will always fail. That is what happens when you fight a fedball. All things being equal such as gear quality and level, captain skill, coordination, and ship class makeups, feds will always come out on top. The only way to crack a fedball is if there is a weak link, like they have too many escorts because they are squishy ships like yours, or if they have a captain or two that isn't that great. It is annoying as a klingon to constantly see fedballs sitting there in their defensive posture and go in knowing you're at a disadvantage.

From the fed perspective, I also find it boring to be a part of a fedball. You just sit there, who knows how long, waiting for the klingons to attack. Despite your advantage and high probability that you'll win, it's still boring and not very fun or enticing,

There needs to be a reason to make players actually do something other than feds just sitting there spitting out mines, and klingons just sitting right at weapons range cloaked waiting.

People have suggested putting timers on the Arena maps but I don't agree with the idea and it doesn't solve the gameplay or balance problems, it just limits the time you spend in the game.

I personally would like to see a couple of new game modes introduced. One would be a 3v3 arena instead of 5v5, because with 3, theres a little more tactics and strategy involved than 5 where it's mostly just "everyone attack this guy" and he dies in 5 seconds. That's not fun for anyone, especially the guy being blown up first. In 3's the damage a ship takes at any given time would be drastically less than in 5v5, meaning your defensive powers, tactics, cross support, and so on would have a lot more meaning and influence the tide of battle a lot more than they do in 5s.

You could also add other traditional PVP modes such as capture the flag. It may not be very Star Trekkie but it's always a fun game mode people enjoy, besides flying to 5 little spinning icons in space about 30 km apart and hold them for a few minutes isn't very star trekkie either.

All in all, the pvp gets kind of old pretty quick. I guess it's the fact every game plays out the same way with the focus firing and trying to crack fedballs for the klingons, or focus firing and staying in a fedball for the feds. The resource battle is a lot more fun and requires better coordination and tactics to win, which is great, but you can only play the same map over and over and over so many times you know? Needs more diversity.

Oh well. Not really trying to make any points here or convince anyone of anything, just kind of rambling whats on my mind. I'm already an admiral on fed side, the PVP as klingons gets old pretty fast so I can only stand leveling up my klingon maybe 1-2 hours a day which is unfortunate.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
02-09-2010, 09:27 PM
Would also be nice to have open PVP zones you don't have to queue for where you can just blow up feds and get skillpoints per kill based on your level.

Not only would it be more fun, but would encourage people to take a little more initiative.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
02-09-2010, 10:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysRemember
Would also be nice to have open PVP zones you don't have to queue for where you can just blow up feds and get skillpoints per kill based on your level.

Not only would it be more fun, but would encourage people to take a little more initiative.
Wouldn't work. Unfortuntly. The ratio is so skewed towards the Fed side that any open play is pretty much a non-starter. Any poor Klingon daring to venture into such a place would get zerged in such a way that tales would be told later of the sheer horror.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
02-09-2010, 10:23 PM
just a quick note, but you forgot to mention the fact that in tier 4 ships can solo gank people that have bad reflexes or all their skills are on cooldown. damage scales way past shields and hull at tier 4.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
02-09-2010, 10:29 PM
I'm going to say here that the reason t1 is so heavily slanted in favor of KDF is many reasons, including but not limited to:

Ship is better than opponent's ship in every way that matters (less hull, but the enemy won't ever be hitting your hull)
KDF players are guaranteed to have at least a little experience
KDF players will have more pvp experience per level
BOP turning rate is better
BOP comes equipped with narrow cone high dps cannon -and- console to boost cannon
BOP comes with cloak to allow it to start the fight at an advantage
BOP has as many consoles as fed ship, but they are universal - permitting max leverage of first strike skills
FED players do not have enough crew slots to have pvp and pve crew, so crew will be pve skills.

When you lay it out, really the kdf start out with an advantage they really don't need in t1.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
02-09-2010, 10:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meat_Machine
FED players do not have enough crew slots to have pvp and pve crew, so crew will be pve skills.
Which is to say, Feds will tend to have more solo builds than group builds.

I think most Klingons learn the value of heals in PvP. Feds who mostly solo don't learn that, so when they dabble in PvP they get destroyed because none of them can support each other.


I think it's even more true in ground combat. As a Tactical, I use that Security kit that buffs people around me. If I only did PvE I can't imagine I'd bother with it and indeed it's very rare to see a Fed with it, which surely contributes to our total domination of them in ground combat.

Similarly, I see Feds with some pretty wacky weapon loadouts in ground combat. Like, I don't know what kind of weapon that is shooting the crazy blue donuts at me but it sucks. I guess it works well enough for them in PvE but it's no match for the prime killing guns I swap between.



Anyway, my point is that while PvE vs PvP is part of it, I think solo vs group is the bigger part. A Fed that's geared out for group PvE would also do well in PvP. A Fed that's geared out for solo PvE is going to suck it up like a Hoover in PvP where they are suddenly part of a group and need to be able to support it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
02-09-2010, 10:49 PM
t-1 is really such a small portion of the overall pvp picture that the imbalance is not really a concern. realistically i think t-1's biggest draw back is the fact that it taints pvp in the mind of many fed players. they just start expecting to lose and line up for pvp with a lets get this over with attitude . having played on both sides i can't overstate the importance of bringing klingon and fed experience to the battle field as both characters have been used as a test bed for theory and application. looking for ways to exploit (legit) the enemys weakness and looking for counters is never a bad way to undersand the overall picture.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8 Klingon Cloak
02-10-2010, 02:54 AM
I realise that the coak is an essential part of Klingon gameplay, however...

Why is it I can be sat in a pvp arena for 1 hour and have only 1 kill in total on the board? Do you agree this is a complete waste of everyone's time, do you not think this is grossly unfair? Is this not considered extremely rude and a direct violation of the spirit of teamwork and gamepley?

I suggest a nerf on klingon cloak, a timer when cloaked so they cannot stay stealthed for the entire arena, and a cooldown so cloak cannot be used immediately after the cloak has expired.

I am dangerously close to quitting this game, which I enjoy very much due to Kilingons abusing this rather awesome power.

I am also most disconcerted at their attitude towards all other players on the map.

I would like to know? Is there grounds to report ignorant players such as this for unfair play? and exploiting the mechanics?

Its completely unfair and rude, Im not scared of loosing, I just want to play the game!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
02-10-2010, 04:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobee
I realise that the coak is an essential part of Klingon gameplay, however...

Why is it I can be sat in a pvp arena for 1 hour and have only 1 kill in total on the board? Do you agree this is a complete waste of everyone's time, do you not think this is grossly unfair? Is this not considered extremely rude and a direct violation of the spirit of teamwork and gamepley?

Depends on the situation.. If for example we are talking about a single KDF pitted against a full Fedball, what do you expect?

Isnt it rude and in violation of the spirit & gameplay to expect them to suicide against you?

*If* however he is doing it to grief you, it is lame, and your reaction should be to leave that particular match


I suggest a nerf on klingon cloak, a timer when cloaked so they cannot stay stealthed for the entire arena, and a cooldown so cloak cannot be used immediately after the cloak has expired.

There is a CD allready, but a timer, no... Id hate to be setting up an attack only to be pulled out of cloak before the team is in position, alone against a 5-man fedball.

I am dangerously close to quitting this game, which I enjoy very much due to Kilingons abusing this rather awesome power.

Maybe the game isnt for you, with vastly different playstyles in PvP.. I see no difference between the game her and the difference between Terran, Protoss and Zerg in Starcraft... Would you quit SC because someone did a Zergrush on you? Why would you expect the other players to follow your gameplan?


I am also most disconcerted at their attitude towards all other players on the map.

Must be a Fed thing, Ive yet to see a trashtalking Klingon, regardless, Ill simply ignore them.


I would like to know? Is there grounds to report ignorant players such as this for unfair play? and exploiting the mechanics?

Its completely unfair and rude, Im not scared of loosing, I just want to play the game!

Then play the game, if you find an instance where the other guy wont engage, then hyper out and find a new game (Ive never seen a game last more than a good 15-20 mins)
Charlimit is lame.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
02-10-2010, 04:40 AM
Ive noticed these issues aswell... as I played my fed char to 45, I rarely ever lost a match, even vs premade grps...

And now playing a klingon up from my scratch, these issues have become painfully obvious... So much that Ive actually had to keep my self from screaming out in barbaric norse rage.

T2 so far has been hell.... alot of the problem is the cruisers... with a correct build up they can actually match the dps of a full dps setup bop... EPS generator = cruiser from hell.
I actually had a cruiser take me from max shield to 50% hull and 0 shield on 1 side within 2 seconds, only using beams..

Not to mention Reverse shield polarity...

Also for some god awful reason theyve outfited the t3 bop with a science console instead of a tac console, which drops our dps even further behind..

Seriously... pvp balance needs to be reworked from scratch... In my 11 years of mmo playing, ive never run into a subscription mmo with a less balanced pvp... the only mmos I can think of that even comes close would be Champions online and Lotro.

As someone who've allrdy played a fed char to rear admiral, It makes me laugh to see these fools cry that Cloak is overpowered, And that its unfair MES was nerfed... couldnt be further from the truth...

And finally, theres the issue of Torpedo launching causing cooldown to cannon fire.. at random.... It lowers my overall dps considerably..
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:13 AM.