Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 PvP Competition mentality.
02-09-2010, 10:49 PM
I just want to say that first off I play Fed and have been since closed beta, also that I am not a hardcore gamer simply because my work schedule is moronic at times. Now what I want to discuss is a generic and more than likely beaten to death subject, PuGs and Pre-mades.

Why do games even bother with randomly throwing people onto a team that generally has a lower chance of winning against a well balanced and coordinated team? I hear more experience players say that you shouldn't even PvP unless you're in a premade. Perhaps it's elitist mentality or the gamers of the world have begun to equate thoroughly stomping someone else's face with "fun". I know PuGs have their moments and come out on top here and there but to me it seems like work instead of gaming to require a voice chat program and go all gung ho like you're on a special forces team.

Granted there is never going to be a balance but I'm still scratching my head when I get into and done with a pvp match be it on ground or in space. I actually feel like I can do more in space and feel like ground combat was not as thought out, more of an after thought thrown in the game. I can't begin to recount how many times I got into a ground match to find myself the only Fed going up against two to three klinks just starting out, then other people drop in just in time to add their body count to the insanity. The ground pvp maps feel like a maze and almost suffocating. I play a very small character simply because it looks humorous when holding a rifle or large weapons and the fact that palm striking someone aims right for the nuts.

I don't deny that being in a pre made is alot of fun because you know who you're playing with and the teammates compliment each other's abilities, its the fact that most fleets I see make it a point that you get a voice chat program even if it's implied as a suggestion ei: We also have Vent. Yeah I've had my fair share of bad "guilds" that basically tell me how to play to compliment their play style and I try not to see them all as that way but I don't want to feel like a navy seal when playing my video games.

It is my sincerest hope that they continue to improve STO cause I'm hooked.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
02-09-2010, 10:59 PM
How can you prevent people from grouping up with friends and use voice communications, so the random PUGs have a chance of winning?

Won't happen.

Even my 60 year old father uses voice communication on the internet. I'm sure, no matter how non-hardcore you are, that you could do the same.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
02-09-2010, 11:17 PM
They should just do integrated voice-comms. Certainly works well enough for X-Box Live games.

What I think ruins pugs is the solo mentality. MMORPGs have done too much to coddle the soloers and cater the game to them. Then they go into PvP, which is a group based game, and they wonder why they suck so bad.


The other thing hurting pugs is the current reward system. Suiciding into the enemy with guns blazing is a perfectly legitimate way to level up through PvP. You'll lose a lot but you'll still gain lots skill points, medals, etc. Of course, many PvPers prefer "winning" over "farming XP" so they get upset when soloers go kamikaze.

And this solo mentality means that few if any people are actually standing around going "LFG PvP", trying to find like minded players before joining the queue.

Maybe they should.

Maybe this game shouldn't support joining the queue with less than a full group.

Maybe forcing people to join a group before joining the queue would solve most of the problems. ("LFG PvP XP farm kamikaze" vs "LFG PvP play to win". People would form up teams with like-minded players rather than be encouraged to queue solo and get thrown in with people who have a completely different idea on how to play.)


Anti-social soloing is the ruin of the MMORPG. Might be best to just stop supporting it and tell those losers to go buy a damn PS3 like the rest of the shut-in misanthropes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
02-09-2010, 11:18 PM
I apologize if you misunderstood my meaning and congratulate your father on his technological savvy. What I meant to convey was with the supposive redundancy of pug grouping why pug at all? Aside from the adrenaline rush of not knowing what you're getting at any time. A few of the mechanics within the game irk me, such as restricting character movement or ability to act. I don't mind knock downs/backs but if I get stuck in one spot and focus fired down in a few seconds flat thats just not fun period.

I'm all for people getting togather with their friends. Just had to make that statement easier for others to understand. I like the idea of joining a group before a queue can be filled, atleast gives you a chance to still be a pug but atleast know who you're working with.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
02-09-2010, 11:34 PM
i personally solo pvp constantly . i see no issues with this in any matches from my experiance . we team up and we group up call a target and then follow targets with 1-2 people that take a second tto switch to primary . overall i dont see the need to force grouping onto anyone since in my estimation i have more victories than losses using even basic grouping and text to co-ordinate attacks. win or lose i dont see any real problem .
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
02-10-2010, 12:38 AM
I solo PvP and find its faster quicker and easier. I do agree sometimes I end up with a good team and some times a bad team but so do the feds. But a bad team can be wipped into shape with just one leader who tells them to stick together and form up a defencive area.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
02-10-2010, 01:15 AM
I often PvP in PUGs. We win some handily, we get trounced sometimes, and sometimes we get a really good fight (usually the PUG stays together and fights another PUG that stayed together).

In one such fight, we fought for about 4 to 5 minutes and I noticed that neither side had yet lost a ship in a very heated battle. That's rewarding.

For the most fun, you should join a fleet with Vent. I used to hate Vent, but you know, it's really very good, lol.

But the ability to go and form a PUG should not be taken away. That has its merits too. It's where you can learn without pressure.

I'm 56 and I've played almost every MMO. Despite my often harsh criticism of Cryptic policies, this is the first game where I really enjoy the PvP. I'm also a bit perplexed that someone congratulated a player who was 60 for using Vent. What do you think we are? Stupid and dead? We know way more than you We compliment the younger players for keeping up with us.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
02-10-2010, 01:46 AM
There's a happy balance between "5 clueless n00bs who don't cooperate at all" and "humourless idiots who think they really are a SEAL team". Actually, the few times I've run with a real top class PvP team in other games they've been quite relaxed (in a professional sort of way) and fun to be around. The really uptight ones are usually the wannabes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
02-10-2010, 02:07 AM
Well.. I must admit..

I enjoy PUG fight, as long as the teammembers are clever enough to stick together and agree on a "leader".. Normally the most experienced PvP Captain will naturally assume the leaderposition, and call out targets.

Just yesterday I was with a group of 3 BOP's and 2 K't'inka's. None of us had seen the others before, but we still proceeded to wipe the floor with every Fed group we encountered (10 matches in a row). Sure some of these Feds were random PUG groups, but we also had a couple of premades (easy to spot, they always enter together, and normally have the same fleettag)

This just shows that a well diciplined PUG group can be just as effective as a premade made up of min-maxers (since VM (as well as a few other skills) are "common" tactics for premade groups, they always assume that their opponents have it, and as such have BOs to counter it. Surprisingly few have polorize hull to counter my tractor.. Its fun dropping a tractor on a Escort trying to exploit the (comparably) poor manouvrebility in my Battlecruiser, then evasive behind them and cut to 1/4 impulse, and let everything loose

Nothing beats the feeling when a PUG group absolutely decimates a bunch on min/maxers in a premade group.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
02-10-2010, 03:03 AM
i've learned to watch the ques i won't join up until the numbers look even or we are down 1 or 2, this keeps the ganking to a minimum. Although i am in a guild most times i run in pug grps which are just as easy to win in if you take the initiative to speak up and tell the grp to stay together. Vent makes a world of difference, add me to your friendslist klinks, I invite you to hang in CHC vent while pvping.
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