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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
02-11-2010, 12:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skullkandy View Post
awesome post. thank you fro the detailed info, this is much appreciated.

All through CB and OB i noticed the big problem with PvP was the cloak. feds would sit in a ball because it was suicide not to, and klings would sit cloaked the whole match because why not go for an assured victory over a maybe victory. Instead of complaining like a lot of players I figured...."well cryptic said that science ships can detect cloak so why not do something about it and focus on uncloaking rather than just complaining."

what would innate skill be? I split my captian skill points about 1/3rd sensors and 2/3rd deflectors. which is also how i gear my ship, deflectors first and sensors second with almost nothing in dps because I prefer the pure support role.
Why don't you try making a new character whose sole purpose is revealing cloak? Look at the traits and see which ones help with stealth detection.

Read through the bridge officer powers. They will tell you if they remove cloaking. It will say something like "Enables Remove_stealth mode 12 seconds."

Finally, look for synergies. Try to find things that all benefit from aux power, if you plan to run high aux.

Maximizing your effectiveness is all about synergies.

I don't mind giving people enough information to find out how to play better on their own, but it doesn't help anyone for me to tell them how I am doing it. If someone arrives at a benefit and doesn't understand why, they will both not use the tools they have been given well, and also have to come back again the next time they run into another obstacle.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
02-11-2010, 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meat_Machine
There are at least three categories of stealth removal. Passive detection, sensor scan and active removal.

Passive detection is the periodic check the game does which combines the players gross perception and compares it to the target stealth rating + distance and target player stats :
(innate character traits + players sensor captain skills + aux settings + buffs - distance) <> (cloaker's base cloak power + cloaker's innate traits + cloakers captain skills + cloaker's aux settings)

We don't know what all the numbers are yet, since they get fudged around, but without captain skils and innate skills, just pumping aux won't make you detect a cloaked ship.

Until now, most fed captains have been adopting one-trick-pony builds and been pumping points into survivability or dps, and few people have really investigated what it takes to reveal cloak - which is good for the KDF players, but bad for the constant stupidity here on the forums as this lack of effort invariably translates into uninformed opinions.

Sensor scan is both a passive detection buff and active removal for science captains.

Active removal is any power that will remove cloak from a cloaked ship. There are quite a few powers that will, and you are encouraged to read power descriptions and discover these for yourself.

Eventually all of these things will be published on websites, and defeating cloak will be fairly trivial, but that day hasn't come yet, so either expend the effort to figure out how to do it or continue to suffer by that lack of effort - at least until the spoiler websites come out to play the game for you.
It's not passive. You can't use it outside of combat anymore either. I'm not sure whate other counters you think there are, but feel free to go in detail as to how they counter cloak. I'm sure you won't do that though.

Edit - you may just not be able to use it on yourself like you could before. Either way it seems to be 100% useless against vs cloak unless timed perfectly.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
02-11-2010, 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustTray View Post
It's not passive. You can't use it outside of combat anymore either. I'm not sure whate other counters you think there are, but feel free to go in detail as to how they counter cloak. I'm sure you won't do that though.

Edit - you may just not be able to use it on yourself like you could before. Either way it seems to be 100% useless against vs cloak unless timed perfectly.
This character is reactionary and uses active powers to break stealth. His traits are mostly efficiency (+ops, +efficiency)

His primary weapons are phaser turrets + chroniton mines (rapid + DEM + system shutdown procs) - I'll be polaron turrets later since those do basically the same as phaser but better. The chroniton mines proc a snare.

My next character after I cap this one is going to be a dedicated stealth detector. Not sure if I would do science with him though, because IMO EPSPT is less situational than SS

I've said it before, but i'll say it more clearly now - cannon weapons are situational based on your ability to position yourself. I'm getting annoyed at the amount of 'stacking the deck' that mediocre kdf players are getting away with, and I enjoy watching them fail too. Robbing a player of their ability to position a 45 degree weapon eliminates their dps entirely.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
02-11-2010, 12:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meat_Machine
This character is reactionary and uses active powers to break stealth. His traits are mostly efficiency (+ops, +effeciency)

His primary weapons are phaser turrets + chroniton mines (rapid + DEM + system shutdown procs) - I'll be polaron turrets later since those do basically the same as phaser but better. The chroniton mines proc a snare.

My next character after I cap this one is going to be a dedicated stealth detector. Not sure if I would do science with him though, because IMO EPSPT is less situational than SS

I've said it before, but i'll say it more clearly now - cannon weapons are situational based on your ability to position yourself. I'm getting annoyed at the amount of 'stacking the deck' that mediocre kdf players are getting away with, and I enjoy watching them fail too. Robbing a player of their ability to position a 45 degree weapon eliminates their dps entirely.
My Klingon is Eng, def my favorite. While sensor scan is a kill me button, I don't really consider it anti cloak. It used to be more versitile when you could cast it on yourself to increase your perception, but as of yesterday, that no longer worked for me on my fed sci ship. They probably patched that out a while ago.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
02-11-2010, 12:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustTray View Post
My Klingon is Eng, def my favorite. While sensor scan is a kill me button, I don't really consider it anti cloak. It used to be more versitile when you could cast it on yourself to increase your perception, but as of yesterday, that no longer worked for me on my fed sci ship. They probably patched that out a while ago.
RSF and EPSPT are so useful in so many situations that they benefit the player in every role. They also raise along with pretty much everything you're going to boost (shield efficiency, shield maint, starship eng)

EPSPT is also about the only reliable counter to polarons.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
02-11-2010, 12:52 PM
With 110/100 aux setting and a MK IV defelector +21 sensors I can usually see klingons 6-8 km away while senosr scan is active on my science captain / science vessel T2 char.

The simple soltion I found on my T2 - T3 klingon though is to just use evasive manouveres and engine battery as you cloak when pulling out of combat that way you get out of the detection range.

Sometimes they try to counter with tractor beam but I have reverse hull polatiry to break tractor beams too.

So no matter how smart the science fed is if the klingons is smarter he will still be able to break combat and get away any time, Its part of the game .. your just going to have to live with it and stop QQing about stealth tbh.

Ive heard the same crying for years in SWG about spies.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
02-11-2010, 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoKi_
With 110/100 aux setting and a MK IV defelector +21 sensors I can usually see klingons 6-8 km away while senosr scan is active on my science captain / science vessel T2 char.

The simple sultion I found on my T2 - T3 klingon though is to just use evasive manouveres and engine battery as you cloak when pulling out of combat that way you get out of the detection range.

Sometimes they try to counter with tractor beam but I have reverse hull polatiry to break tractor beams too.

So no matter how smart the science fed is if the klingons is smarter he will still be able to break combat and get away any time, Its part of the game .. your just going to have to live with it and stop QQing about stealth tbh.

Ive heard the same crying for years in SWG about spies.
first off, don't be a douche bag.

secondly I wasn't QQing about stealth. I even said that removing stealth would be stupid, i defintely don't agree that it is OP we just need to know the mechanics for countering it. What I wanted to know is what allows stealth detection because the literature released by cryptic on the subject is grossly wrong. I fly with my aux up, have put lots of points into sensors, have a deflector and science console geared towards sensors and have not once been able to see cloaked ships even when they are right on top of me. Thus I asked for information on the subject because cryptic can't be clear and even gives out completely false information.

I was not aware that having sensor scan skill is basically mandatory to detecting cloak as the website and in game said that science SHIPS can detect stealth with no mention that you must have a science captian skill to do it.

so unless you have something with substance to add how about you put the d**k back in your mouth and go away.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
02-11-2010, 01:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoKi_
With 110/100 aux setting and a MK IV defelector +21 sensors I can usually see klingons 6-8 km away while senosr scan is active on my science captain / science vessel T2 char.

The simple sultion I found on my T2 - T3 klingon though is to just use evasive manouveres and engine battery as you cloak when pulling out of combat that way you get out of the detection range.
I don't think just gear without the relevant traits and skills will cut it. I have theory on this, but have to grind up a new character soon to see what the application is.


Quote:

Sometimes they try to counter with tractor beam but I have reverse hull polatiry to break tractor beams too.

So no matter how smart the science fed is if the klingons is smarter he will still be able to break combat and get away any time, Its part of the game .. your just going to have to live with it and stop QQing about stealth tbh.

Ive heard the same crying for years in SWG about spies.
tractor beam is probably the weakest counter to cloak, and that slot is much better served with sci team 1. sci team buffs sci powers, and heals hull. imo anyhow

and no, I guarantee the smarter klingon will not always be able to break combat and get away any time. KDF have just been lucky so far that feds haven't been using the tools they have.

I look forward with glee to feds raising the game again. If that leads to kdf rage, we all win. It's getting way too easy on the kdf side atm.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
02-11-2010, 01:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meat_Machine
Why don't you try making a new character whose sole purpose is revealing cloak? Look at the traits and see which ones help with stealth detection.

Read through the bridge officer powers. They will tell you if they remove cloaking. It will say something like "Enables Remove_stealth mode 12 seconds."

Finally, look for synergies. Try to find things that all benefit from aux power, if you plan to run high aux.

Maximizing your effectiveness is all about synergies.

I don't mind giving people enough information to find out how to play better on their own, but it doesn't help anyone for me to tell them how I am doing it. If someone arrives at a benefit and doesn't understand why, they will both not use the tools they have been given well, and also have to come back again the next time they run into another obstacle.
Although i definitely appreciate your help I read through all the skills and the only one I could find was the one i mentioned, charged particle burst. I also don't rely on any information in game because as we all know over half of it is either vauge or just flat out incorrect. that's why I was hoping someone had figured out a list of skills that can decloak and what effects them. Knowing now that basically the only real way to do this is through sensor scan I may start all over, but above someone else said this no longer is the case so yet again I'm at a loss with no solid information. maybe if cryptic knew what they were doing then they could be able to explain it to us....but since it seems they don't even have a plan or a clue as to what they are doing from one minute to the next it's hard for us to get correct info.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
02-11-2010, 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skullkandy View Post
Although i definitely appreciate your help I read through all the skills and the only one I could find was the one i mentioned, charged particle burst. I also don't rely on any information in game because as we all know over half of it is either vauge or just flat out incorrect. that's why I was hoping someone had figured out a list of skills that can decloak and what effects them. Knowing now that basically the only real way to do this is through sensor scan I may start all over, but above someone else said this no longer is the case so yet again I'm at a loss with no solid information. maybe if cryptic knew what they were doing then they could be able to explain it to us....but since it seems they don't even have a plan or a clue as to what they are doing from one minute to the next it's hard for us to get correct info.
I understand. I promise the information is there. You may have to look at 'rare' npcs to find what you are after.

best way is to buy up cheap npcs off of the ah. promote one of your sci guys up, and use cheap npcs to train them in skills you want to test.

also, get a collection of dishes and sci / eng modules to swap in to test which traits raise the stats / duration on abilities - it's not always obvious, accurate or even listed on the bo powers.
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