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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
02-12-2010, 02:32 AM
You talk about fed players abandoning the fed ball when it is the klingon players that are the ones responsible for the fed ball.

You think a fed player is moving out of his ball to get slaughtered by 10 klinks who cloak camp and the decloak when they have numerical advantage on a stray target.

Most of the time klingon tatics are camp in cloak and then attack one they have numerical advantage.

Thus the fed ball is the only counter to the klingon cloak ambush because when they decloak one by one they get focus fired on and blown away.

If klinks actually formed there own ball uncloaked and attacked the fed ball pvp might actually be interesting.

As i see it now most of the FvK battles revolve around fed balling and klink cloak camping or uncloaking with a few ships and when fed ships attack , more decloak and outnumbed the feds.

the whole perma cloak pretty much ruins PVP and is resposible for the Fed Ball

Cloak needs a timer so klinks can only cloak for say 3 minutes at a time before your forced the decloak and wait 1 minute for the cloak to recharge. It would reduce the klink cloak camping and fed balling.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
02-12-2010, 02:39 AM
Question:
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Answer:
Doesn't matter, they both taste pretty good.

In other words -- just as in real-world warfare -- strategies, operations, and tactics for one side will always shape the other side.

Part of the reason behind 'balling' up -- for both Federation and Klingons -- is the limited range of certain support abilities. Simple counter: AOE, Warp Core Breach damage.

Adapt. The Borg do have a point.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
02-12-2010, 03:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alanthegreat View Post
I have played today about 15 rounds in two different ships and it is WAY UNBALANCED. I can not win one round even with people staying together and are higher levels then the Klingon's, and still we can not get their shields down past half. But the Klingon's rip through our shields in 10 seconds. Cryptic why did you unbalance the PVP why not stick to what was in CO(the balance system that brought up the lower level people and handicapped the higher level people).

Anyway, I cannot believe that a bird of pray has that munch shields and that powerful of weapons. It is a Fed slaughter every time I play PVP. So something needs to be changed to re-balance this or I will never get the two assigned missions done.

Also to add Klingon's should have weaker shields and higher hall and low hall in the back and low shields in the back. In every show, movie, and game the Klingon's never believed that someone would have the advantage of getting behind them and they would never turn away in a battle and to go forward to kill their opponent. Also weaker shields motivated their solders, captains, and craw to never turn and run like a coward. Last we should be able to fire on them while they are cloaking and cloaked (but it should be only why you are right on top of them and have a spacial scanner)

also not just the science class federation ship can see cloaked ship and no one else it is ridicules because in PVP sessions there are not always a science class to help the Fed side. the cloaking should be not so useful because it is to hide and the ship. Also the ship is very vulnerable at this state because they have no shields up to protect them.
The factions aren't meant to be exactly the same, it doesn't mean it's completely imbalanced.

The first flavor difference between the two factions is essentially all federation ships have more durability and survivability than klingon ships, in exchange klingon ships are flimsier and easier to destroy but are all granted the use of cannon weaponry which does superior damage to beam weapons. But cannons vs beams already has it's own pros and cons in the firing arc.

The second flavor difference is the cloak. Cloak provides no benefit in combat, once ships start firing cloak means nothing. The only advantage of cloak is the enemy doesn't know when you're going to attack, lets klingons organize and establish a kill-order before the fight begins safely, and finally it prevents them from being mercilessly ganked when they're outnumbered such as in the beginning of arena matches when not everyone is in yet.

Heres the basic rundown on the ships...

Fed Escort is the Equivalent of Klingon Raptor. Same exact firepower potential in all tiers, but the fed escort has superior defensive and support capability via better officer stations as well as higher base durability. Fed has a clear advantage here.

Fed Cruiser is the equivalent of the Klingon Cruiser (neg'vhar, k't'inga, vorcha). Klingon cruisers have the option to fit cannons which give them superior firepower when a fight begins, but because of their relatively slow turn rate, cannons have their effectiveness greatly diminished after the first few seconds of a fight because any skilled fed player can outmaneuver them easily. Cannons may be effective most of the time vs a bad fed team (which most are) but vs an organized/skilled one will be pretty useless not long after the fight starts so its more practical to use beams on a kling cruiser when fighting skilled opponents which negates the superior firepower aspect and makes it equal damage to fed cruisers. Fed cruisers, once again, have better survivability. So when a kling cruiser mounts cannons, it is more or less balanced out, but when a kling cruiser mounts beams, the fed cruiser once again has the advantage.

So as far as escorts and cruisers go, feds mostly have a clear advantage.

Fed Science vessel is the equivalent to the Klingon Bird of Prey. In tiers 1 through 3, people tend to play the Bird of Prey more like an escort than a science vessel because it already has great turn rate and has the same weapon configuration as an escort in those tiers. Now when you consider a BOP an escort, it kinda sucks because it has even less durability than the raptor and fed escort. But when you compare the BOP to a science ship, it makes a lot more sense. Like all klingon ships, it can mount cannons instead of being forced to use beams, but in the BOP's case the durability of the ship and shields is significantly less than the fed science vessel, an even larger gap than other ships. The science vessels have the innate power to target subsystems which can prevent their target from fleeing, turning, attacking, or regenerating shields. BOP's get battlecloak as their innate ability instead. The science ship's is more offense oriented to cripple an enemy ship whereas the BOP is more of an escape technique.

Where the BOP really stands out is the versatility of it's bridge officers, however it gets less power slots because of it. Now these officer combinations can make a single bird of prey have a slightly higher potential for supporting it's team than a fed science ship in lower levels, but a T5 science ship gets pretty much all the support powers available anyway plus some tactical, the BOP would have to give up it's tactical slots to get as many support powers as a fed science ship.

The cloak + Cannons just give noobs an advantage over noobs "most of the time". But in organized team vs organized team, fed prettymuch always wins because of their cross-supporting abilities on their already tougher, sturdier ships makes them nearly impossible to destroy when they are properly supporting each other. Klingon ships with the same setup get destroyed, even with just beam weapons and a few cannons from however many fed escorts are there because the ships are EXTREMELY flimsy.

I personally am an Engineer and I fly a bird of prey and use it like a science ship focusing on team support. I find that in pugs, as long as I throw out shield and hull heals doing the early stages of a fight, we usually win. When i'm in a pre-made we steam roll the enemy every time ultimately, but sometimes we lose the initial 5v5 encounter right as the game begins just because of the imbalance that favors feds. Despite our cross supporting each other and organization, the fed ships are significantly harder to destroy. I cannot stress that enough. But we eventually make a come back and tear them up, especially picking them off 1 by 1 as they respawn before they can return to the fedball.

Pug vs Pug klingons usually win unless theres a couple or at least one good healer/support people on fed side but in my experience most fed PVPers are in cruisers, i'm assuming because they're so hard to kill and like exploiting the overpowered factor of RSP. There are a few escorts here and there and even fewer science ships. But even in cruisers and escorts, by tier 3 you have a lot of cross healing support potential but most players dont spec that way. They set their ships up to boost their solo effectiveness only, probably because most feds are primarily solo PVEers.

Organized vs organized fed usually win.

So all in all, I guess that's pretty balanaced. One side wins more in pugs, the other side wins more in premade vs premade.

Besides, if you really hate losing you should play more of the control maps. Klingon players, for whatever reason, always act retarded on control maps and focus more on ganking than actually capping points, so feds tend to win that more often than not unless they're simply overwhelmed beat so bad that they can't even leave their respawn area before being destroyed.

Bottom line is, it's not as unbalanced as you believe. Your 15 games don't mean squat. I've PVPed my way through the tiers on both sides, so i've seen it from both ends. I fly a Prometheus class and Sovereign class on my fed, and I stick with BOPs for klingon.

World of ******** has this exact same problem. Even though Alliance and Horde have the exact same classes, and the ONLY difference between the factions are the racial abilities which are very minor in the grand scheme of things, people on both sides still claim the other side is overpowered. Horde win more at PVP than alliance do because they are typically just better players. Like it or not, being the "Bad guys" attracts the majority of the more skilled gaming community, it always has in gaming history. The fact klingons are type-caste as "the pvp faction" only makes it worse, because it attracts more PVPers as well as the more skilled PVPers.

Most of the time PVPing as klingon is like shooting fish in a barrel. I win like 80-90% of all games. But when I play fed, I win about 80-90% of the time too. There is nothing wrong with the factions, just the people you play with.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
02-12-2010, 03:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipermist
You talk about fed players abandoning the fed ball when it is the klingon players that are the ones responsible for the fed ball.

You think a fed player is moving out of his ball to get slaughtered by 10 klinks who cloak camp and the decloak when they have numerical advantage on a stray target.

Most of the time klingon tatics are camp in cloak and then attack one they have numerical advantage.

Thus the fed ball is the only counter to the klingon cloak ambush because when they decloak one by one they get focus fired on and blown away.

If klinks actually formed there own ball uncloaked and attacked the fed ball pvp might actually be interesting.

As i see it now most of the FvK battles revolve around fed balling and klink cloak camping or uncloaking with a few ships and when fed ships attack , more decloak and outnumbed the feds.

the whole perma cloak pretty much ruins PVP and is resposible for the Fed Ball

Cloak needs a timer so klinks can only cloak for say 3 minutes at a time before your forced the decloak and wait 1 minute for the cloak to recharge. It would reduce the klink cloak camping and fed balling.
There was loads of Klingons when this game started, now there is maybe 50% of that amount left, if you ruin the whole cloak warfare then there will be 10% left. And when i mean left i mean the rest just stops playing the game totally.

IF we are forced to decloak , then we demand equal hull/shield and science ship in same tiers feds have em.

There is always different teams playing (even RP teams who play really slow) but in example our premade completes one Cracked planetoid in about 8 minutes.

Our fastest kills of 5 feds were 11 seconds from decloak (feds had 0 healing/support).

You play feds and demand nerfs for Klingon side, every Klingon i know has stated that 5vs5 is just fine, the only QQ comes from random PuG players who dont understand that they play against premades.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
02-12-2010, 03:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipermist
You talk about fed players abandoning the fed ball when it is the klingon players that are the ones responsible for the fed ball.

You think a fed player is moving out of his ball to get slaughtered by 10 klinks who cloak camp and the decloak when they have numerical advantage on a stray target.

Yet, you want Klingons to be "ready" within 3 minutes, why do you want us to decloak and get slaughtered by the superior Federation ships?


Most of the time klingon tatics are camp in cloak and then attack one they have numerical advantage.

Funny, because 90% of the time I go into cracked, I arrive at the other side and find 5 feds in a ball.. Sometimes it take a little while before Klingons get a full group, so sometimes we attack before we have a full group (this happened atleast 3 matches out of the 20ish I did yesterday)


Thus the fed ball is the only counter to the klingon cloak ambush because when they decloak one by one they get focus fired on and blown away.

No, aggressive seeking out the cloaked targets is a far better counter.. We wait until our gameplan is ready, when we do attack we are ready.. Just yesterday I had 2 matches where a single fed Sciencevessel did a sweep like 10k out of the ball.. Both times he picked up a target at 7-8k (so its obviously possible to spot cloaked ships if you know how) and those 2 matches were the ones we lost "worst"


If klinks actually formed there own ball uncloaked and attacked the fed ball pvp might actually be interesting.

If you think seeing the Klingons get slaughtered over and over, sure.. Klingon ships are far inferior to Fed ships atleast in T2/3/4 (T2 is worst because we have nothing but escorts there)


As i see it now most of the FvK battles revolve around fed balling and klink cloak camping or uncloaking with a few ships and when fed ships attack , more decloak and outnumbed the feds.

The whole outnumber arguement are flawed, there are only 5 ships per side in a DM style match, how can we outnumber you unless one of you are jacking off in a corner or dropped or something?


the whole perma cloak pretty much ruins PVP and is resposible for the Fed Ball

The Fed ships superiority are responsible for the cloak, the ball-camping are responsible for the cloakcamping.. You guys are the ones sitting defensive 5k from your own spawnpoint.. We wont attack until such time where we are confident we can succeed, altough Ive seen Fed teams completely r*pe a perfect setup attack


Cloak needs a timer so klinks can only cloak for say 3 minutes at a time before your forced the decloak and wait 1 minute for the cloak to recharge. It would reduce the klink cloak camping and fed balling.
10 chars ftl
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
02-12-2010, 08:06 AM
It's funny now whenever I read one of these "We can't win in pvp", I have to scan it to see if it's a fed or kdf player. I presume these are heartfelt, but the posters don't realize that players from both sides are making these kinds of excuses.

The thing is, rarely do people who are succeeding bother to come into the forums to boast about how well they are doing, but hilariously - when people are failing they come here and want to blame the game for their failure with a big post that just calls attention to themselves.

It's possible to win as either side, and possible to have fun and do well as either side. It's very possible for two sides that are good to have a great and close match at any level. Some levels favor one side or another, but that isn't evident until the skill levels of both teams is high.

I hope that we've established by now enough of a groundwork of understanding that everyone in these forums at least acknowledges that the sides are not so imba that posts like these can't be seen for what they are. The only way someone ever posts like this is if they are in a place where they can't see what factors affect success.

To get any better, the OP needs to make teams, find teammates, learn the game, and accept defeat as a teacher. The language he's using shows that he's not in that place, and no amount of argument will help him until he is.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
02-12-2010, 09:48 AM
I fly a BoP, Science Captain 9.
I fly with no Tac officer, 50/25/25/100.
I am support. My current bridge makeup is 1 ENG (ensign) 2 SCI (LT) 1 SCI (COM)
I fly with 2 sci teams, 2 Hazard emitters, 1 ENG team to directly support teammates and myself.
I use Tykens rift,Sub Nucleonic beam,Tractor beam, Dampening field, and Scramble sensors to harass the enemy.
I Protect myself with a Feedback pulse and battle cloak. (Feedback makes any beam ship shoot someone else faster than RSP, but useless vs. my bane, the fed escort)

The best 5v5 rounds have ended with a mere 2 point difference (15-13, 15-14).
The biggest difference between a good fight and a 15-0 wipe is healing.
I have seen Fed teams of 3 Cruisers and 2 Sci with 0 healing. (not even themselves)
Sometimes 4 different matches of feds with zero healing.
There is a massive amount of cross ship support on the Klingon side (usually)
On wipes we have as many healing points as Feds have damage points.

When the Feds have it...the fight is much more even.
When you have a bad match, look at the end score card.
I also have seen several players who just suicide as soon as they are shot at. (As nice as it is to see the T4 cruiser explode in one pass from mynon-DPS BoP, it is lame)
It is not easy to see in the scoreboard as the death explosion damage counts as damage points.
One cruiser specifically had 5 deaths, 120K damage, no kills just ramming/self destructing.

Yea, it sucks when you get stuck with one of these players, and they will usually cause the match to be a loss for their side, but since they get almost the same exp win or lose, they don't care.

Best bet for good matches is try to team with people who actually want to play, not power level.

Usually a good Pug will stay together for more matches because it prevents the power levelers from ruining it. And often I get friend requests to make future teams easier.

Sho'Vac
KDF Science Officer, Captain 9
BoP pilot
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
02-12-2010, 10:21 AM
ill do the usal mantra

fed ship have supiour tank ablitys when they heal eachother do it and you win dont and you wont

want to dectect cloak heres a few simple steps

get a sci ship(sci captin not required)

put sp into sensors/sensor array

put full power to aux

omg i can see cloakes ships at 8km

combine with other things like aux batters and bo ablitys like emergance power to aux and mog i can see kligons at 11km+

sugjestion dont sit still half the time once the fed ball is formed they dont move togther a smart fed ball will move away fom the spawn as a group while staying within mutal healing range a non moving target is much easier to sneak up on then a moving target
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
02-12-2010, 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genosaurer View Post
Really though, most of the skills that are best in PvP are also among the most effective choices for PvE. Reverse Shield Polarity, Extend Shields, Cannon Rapid Fire, Science/Engineering Team, etc. are all quite useful when doing PvE missions.
GROUP PvE, yes.

I think part of the problem is that Feds level up mainly via solo PvE. Most of them don't have Extend Shields, which is (I think) the best heal in the game, because they can't use it on themselves.

Also, with no death penalty there is no incentive to play "correctly" in PvE. Just go all DPS and if you die, just respawn and zip back into the fight like nothing happened. Why even bother with heals? We do the same thing sometimes with Ice Mining when we're farming for loot. Shoot shoot shoot, die, respawn, shoot shoot shoot, die, respawn... it's not worth the trouble of healing because you'll respawn full health 50 feet away.



But it is also true that the PvE is too easy and this lulls Feds into thinking they're good enough for PvP. I dunno how bad it is in space combat because it's not possible to tell what weapons the Feds are using but in ground combat they use some awful, outdated or just plain weak equipment. I get exposed and shot with a split beam rifle that's at least 1 rank (possibly 2) out of date and I actually live, whereas if they'd had an upgraded weapon they could have killed me. Or they're using some other fairly impractical weapon that all the Klingons tried and ditched in T1.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
02-12-2010, 10:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alanthegreat View Post
I have played today about 15 rounds in two different ships and it is WAY UNBALANCED. I can not win one round even with people staying together and are higher levels then the Klingon's, and still we can not get their shields down past half. But the Klingon's rip through our shields in 10 seconds. Cryptic why did you unbalance the PVP why not stick to what was in CO(the balance system that brought up the lower level people and handicapped the higher level people).

Anyway, I cannot believe that a bird of pray has that munch shields and that powerful of weapons. It is a Fed slaughter every time I play PVP. So something needs to be changed to re-balance this or I will never get the two assigned missions done.

Also to add Klingon's should have weaker shields and higher hall and low hall in the back and low shields in the back. In every show, movie, and game the Klingon's never believed that someone would have the advantage of getting behind them and they would never turn away in a battle and to go forward to kill their opponent. Also weaker shields motivated their solders, captains, and craw to never turn and run like a coward. Last we should be able to fire on them while they are cloaking and cloaked (but it should be only why you are right on top of them and have a spacial scanner)

also not just the science class federation ship can see cloaked ship and no one else it is ridicules because in PVP sessions there are not always a science class to help the Fed side. the cloaking should be not so useful because it is to hide and the ship. Also the ship is very vulnerable at this state because they have no shields up to protect them.
just a guess, but are you tier 1?
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