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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
02-12-2010, 10:59 AM
Both skills are great little skills and should remain in the game, they just need to be tweaked realistically to make them useful without being devestating to the point people roll chars just to use these OP skills.

Virals active time needs to be lowered and cool down raised. Also it needs to be made clear weather higher versions of sci team prevent different versions of viral. The new implementation that is supposed to be coming of having sci team remove it during effect should only work if the sci team is higher than the viral. ST1 should not remove VM III for example. This should be similar for most skills. If you have used your commander slot on a BOF for a certain skill it should be worth it.

Subnucs acive time needs to be limited or have some counter to remove it. Being able to use no skills for 25+ seconds is a death sentance. Not to mention the lol combo with a skilled up sensor scan III.

Finally both of thse skills should not be stackable. By this I mean you cant just keep spamming viral / sub nuc onto the same person over to increase the active time. The first time one of them hits it should instantly create some immunity for the next 30 seconds or whatever.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
02-12-2010, 11:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kor_Dahar_Master View Post
I have not experianced subneuclionic beam yet but i know that Attack Pattern Omega defeats viral matrix totally effectivly.

Also these jamming abilities force teamwork and communication and while some ppl are either unable or unwilling to work in units and communicate i do not think that removing these mechanics to cater to them is a good idea as it drastically lowers the teamwork and skill required to be successful in pvp.


Unfortunatly as with most games the poorly skilled and lazy players who require something to point at and say "thats why i lose" tend to outnumber those who are willing to learn, communicate and work in units.
I then hope that you experience SubNuc Beam soon.

There was some pretty skillful play in T2 and T3. I was on the giving end and the receiving end equally. THAT WAS FUN.

T4 is a joke. Getting Mezzed over and over and over and being blown up as I passively watch is not skillful play on my opponent's part. With VM it's him pressing a button faster (and in the case of VM, it's the Dooms Day button), OR having an extra ship in the team that can cast it again when I counter the first Mez he throws at me.

But there is no counter to the 22 second SubNuc Beam Mez so it's my opponent having an ability inherent to the Science Captain that completely takes me out of the game for 22 seconds. 22 seconds I have to watch as my ship gets blown up while I am able to do absolutely nothing about it (except cancelling my account). NOT FUN.

What is the skill in having an "I win" button?, for surely, the Science Captain only Skill Subneucleonic Beam is an "I win" button.

There is no skill involved. Press the button and your opponent is helpless for 22 seconds even as you pound her/him. There is no skill there. Explain where you see skill.

The JOY of Playing is gone.

Overall, for most PvPers, this will be the reason they quit. NOT FUN.

And kindly do not impute that I am "poorly skilled and lazy."

I played and had fun, but I choose not to play now when, frankly, due to these bizzare spells, I actually can't do anything in the game except watch myself die.

Regardless, thank you for your post.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
02-12-2010, 11:15 AM
You DO realize that science team will soon be applicable when Viral Matrix'd right (i.e. the devs actually AGREE with you)? Which means your pretty much preaching to the choir. The devs agree with you, and your own statistics (generated on the spot, like 87.2% of all statistical citations) say that 95% of casual pvpers agree with you. We will be able to activate science team while matrix'd.

The changes you want are in the works lol. I really don't get the nerf VM threads anymore. The devs agree with you. Its getting nerfed. There are many good reasons to cancel a subscription. The devs agreeing with your point of view is not one of them.

Unless, when its fixed, you don't want to equip science team I because you don't feel that you should have to counter the CC in the first place. In that case, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Oh, and there is cannon precedent for VM. In TNG the enterprise got hacked multiple times. Ditto voyager. In DS9 the Breen had a weapon that did exactly what vm does now (Not to mention that the station itself got hacked on multiple occasions). So the "It's magic in space" argument applies to all of star trek. Just FYI.

Edit for great Justice: In Wrath of Khan, Round 1 of Kirk vs. Khan, Kirk uses Viral matrix to disable Khans shields. Literally using the computer to disable the enemy ship.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
02-12-2010, 11:24 AM
I look at games like call of duty/modern warfare as being the leaders of pvp... One shot kills happen, both in games, tv, and real life. Now I am all for changing some skills, but I am not for pointing fingers at one or two skills saying they are OP and that those two abilities must be nerfed. The reason being that the overall picture needs to be changed. Right now quick deaths can happen, abilities like VM and RSP and Subnucleonic beam help to offset this. I use them and my dps suffers greatly, however my survivability goes up a bit. I'm not saying leave them in or I quit. I'm just saying that targetting a few skills in a pile of crappy skills is a bad idea.

I personally think they should have a test server up with dedicated dev support to figure out the best ways to approach the skill changes accross the board.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
02-12-2010, 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PotatoOverdose View Post
You DO realize that science team will soon be applicable when Viral Matrix'd right (i.e. the devs actually AGREE with you)? Which means your pretty much preaching to the choir. The devs agree with you, and your own statistics (generated on the spot, like 87.2% of all statistical citations) say that 95% of casual pvpers agree with you. We will be able to activate science team while matrix'd.

The changes you want are in the works lol. I really don't get the nerf VM threads anymore. The devs agree with you. Its getting nerfed. There are many good reasons to cancel a subscription. The devs agreeing with your point of view is not one of them.

Unless, when its fixed, you don't want to equip science team I because you don't feel that you should have to counter the CC in the first place. In that case, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Oh, and there is cannon precedent for VM. In TNG the enterprise got hacked multiple times. Ditto voyager. In DS9 the Breen had a weapon that did exactly what vm does now (Not to mention that the station itself got hacked on multiple occasions). So the "It's magic in space" argument applies to all of star trek. Just FYI.

Edit for great Justice: In Wrath of Khan, Round 1 of Kirk vs. Khan, Kirk uses Viral matrix to disable Khans shields. Literally using the computer to disable the enemy ship.
Does SubNuc Beam get removed with a Science Team like VM?

If so, then there is no problem. VM has a counter and, annoying as VM may be, the counter is readily available if you play socially.

I think his problem is with SubNuc beam, which is, supposedly undefendable (I don't have it yet, so I cant tell for sure)....Undefendable anything is a bad thing. If it is a long-duration unbrekable form of CC, specifically so.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
02-12-2010, 11:41 AM
i got hitted in T4 yesterday with Subnucleonic beam and i got CDs worth over 40 seconds.

40 seconds, every 100% talent/skill ,... on timer.

That was pretty... not so fun.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
02-12-2010, 11:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher Lloyd

T4 is a joke. Getting Mezzed over and over and over and being blown up as I passively watch is not skillful play on my opponent's part. With VM it's him pressing a button faster, OR having an extra ship in the team that can cast it again when I counter the first Mez he throws at me.


But there is no counter to the 22 second SubNuc Beam Mez so it's my opponent having an ability inherent to the Science Captain that completely takes me out of the game for 22 seconds. 22 seconds I have to watch as my ship gets blown up .
Its not the effect that is in question or that it needs countering, its the attitude of "im quitting call me when the thing i dont like is gone".

The game needs a rock paper scissors aspect of these highly delibatating effects or it becomes all about spamming the fire button.


Now buffing or adjusting science team, omega and other effects so they are better as well as perhaps adjusting coooldowns ect are positive ideas that myself and others will support but "games broke cos of X, im quitting" will gain you nothing but derision from serious gamers and pvpers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher Lloyd
What is the skill in having an "I win" button?, for surely, the Science Captain only Skill Subneucleonic Beam is an "I win" button.

There is no skill involved. Press the button and your opponent is helplkess for 22 seconds.

The JOY of Playing is gone.
The skill is in you communicating to your team the problem and them acting to either counter it (when the counter is implemented) and or buffing/RRing you so you survive, while your team also works offensivly.

I suggest you start thinking of pvp as a team effort or you are always going to find "broken mechanics/i-win buttons" when the truth is you are just trying to make pvp like solo mission running............its not and never will be no matter how many things you blame.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher Lloyd
And kindly do not impute that I am "poorly skilled and lazy."

I played and had fun, but I choose not to play now when, frankly, due to these spells, I actually can't do anything in the game except watch myself die
.
Sorry dude but all that tells me is that you started off against players of the same skill level and while they have now adapted and become more proficient within the currant game mechanics you are either unwilling or unable to do so and instead have ran to the forum to get the game changed to suit your currant level of skill.


PVPers will always look for and find new ways of winning against other players, its what we do and after all the mechanics of the game are available to everybody.

Like wise there will always be those who as i say are either unwilling or unable to do so and run to the forums saying they will quit unless X is changed cos its making them lose.


Im sure the game will change many times over the months and years so if i were you i would either adapt to it and spend your time playing and enjoying the game or just quit for good cos blaming mechanics that are available to all is a never ending cycle.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
02-12-2010, 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenikis View Post
Both skills are great little skills and should remain in the game, they just need to be tweaked realistically to make them useful without being devestating to the point people roll chars just to use these OP skills.

Virals active time needs to be lowered and cool down raised. Also it needs to be made clear weather higher versions of sci team prevent different versions of viral. The new implementation that is supposed to be coming of having sci team remove it during effect should only work if the sci team is higher than the viral. ST1 should not remove VM III for example. This should be similar for most skills. If you have used your commander slot on a BOF for a certain skill it should be worth it.

Subnucs acive time needs to be limited or have some counter to remove it. Being able to use no skills for 25+ seconds is a death sentance. Not to mention the lol combo with a skilled up sensor scan III.

Finally both of thse skills should not be stackable. By this I mean you cant just keep spamming viral / sub nuc onto the same person over to increase the active time. The first time one of them hits it should instantly create some immunity for the next 30 seconds or whatever.

You make good points, but most people are not here to play Grandmaster Chess PvP. I would just dump the skills. Make them something fun, not unfun.

Also, a Klingon Cruiser doesn't have a Lt. Commander Science BOF slot so I can't have Science Team III.

I appreciate all of your points and they are very good ones. I understand team play. The problem is that most people who PvP will soon be bored with the limited scope of PvP available in the arenas, and having a kick in the pants like SubNuc Beam will just have them cancelling sooner and uninstalling STO and loading up a game that's more fun.

Cryptic said they wanted a game that was fun and accessible to most players. They meant PvE mainly, but I'm quite sure they don't want PvP to be "unfun."

Hold spells are just not fun.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
02-12-2010, 11:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PotatoOverdose View Post
Edit for great Justice: In Wrath of Khan, Round 1 of Kirk vs. Khan, Kirk uses Viral matrix to disable Khans shields. Literally using the computer to disable the enemy ship.

Actually kirk uses the Reliant's command override code to disable khan's shielding, a measure designed to stop someone hijacking a federation starship. Two things you might want to note there, firstly Khan countered it after the Enterprise's first attack, and secondly, he wasn't exactly hacking Khan's computer in the conventional sense, more taking control of a stolen computer.

The point of this pedantic little correction? The subneucleonic beam, VM combo isn't readily counterable. It's STO's lolcombo. I think the main problem is that it can be chained, so you can chainstun someone continually if they don't have APO. And before you come out with "LOLZ JUST CARRY APO AND YOU WIN NOOB", not all of us want to, or indeed can, carry a tactical officer with attack pattern omega. Why should I lose my commander bridge slot so I can counter the nastiest Iwin stun skill in the game. I think the way to fix this would be to have science team (maybe engineering team too) remove both subneuc and VM, and make you totally immune from both for the duration of the buff. That way you only screw up someone who isn't prepared, and the mezstorm will be reduced. This will also do what I'm guessing VM and Subneuc is supposed to do in the first place, which is to stop healers from healing for a short time, since they have to fire their science team/eng team to remove the debuff, and hence they lose their strongest insta-heal for 45 seconds and any other "teams" for the group cooldown period.

In the Wrath of Khan, kirk didn't go "ROFL Viral Matrix" then fly rings around a completely disabled Reliant while Khan threw coffee at the viewscreen.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
02-12-2010, 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PotatoOverdose View Post
You DO realize that science team will soon be applicable when Viral Matrix'd right (i.e. the devs actually AGREE with you)? Which means your pretty much preaching to the choir. The devs agree with you, and your own statistics (generated on the spot, like 87.2% of all statistical citations) say that 95% of casual pvpers agree with you. We will be able to activate science team while matrix'd.

The changes you want are in the works lol. I really don't get the nerf VM threads anymore. The devs agree with you. Its getting nerfed. There are many good reasons to cancel a subscription. The devs agreeing with your point of view is not one of them.

Unless, when its fixed, you don't want to equip science team I because you don't feel that you should have to counter the CC in the first place. In that case, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Oh, and there is cannon precedent for VM. In TNG the enterprise got hacked multiple times. Ditto voyager. In DS9 the Breen had a weapon that did exactly what vm does now (Not to mention that the station itself got hacked on multiple occasions). So the "It's magic in space" argument applies to all of star trek. Just FYI.

Edit for great Justice: In Wrath of Khan, Round 1 of Kirk vs. Khan, Kirk uses Viral matrix to disable Khans shields. Literally using the computer to disable the enemy ship.

Granted, granted. I'm smarter than I post. How else to make sure this gets done ASAP?

Also, you didn't address SubNucleonic Beam. That's a 22-25 second "I win" button.

Have you played in T4? Perhaps you have. I have seen slaughters, but no close matches. I'm sure a lot of players are really p'd off in T4. If I cancelled, which I did (I'll come back when/if they fix it), how many players will cancel and not give a darn about coming back, fix or no fix?

Btw, 92.4% of all statistical citations are generated on the spot.
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