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# 41
07-16-2014, 10:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldravenman3025 View Post
That was a production decision. And in no way is it evidence that the Constitution class (refit) was ever completely removed from service.
There is no "evidence" either way, you cannot use "they never said all were removed from service" as evidence they were in service.

Quote:
Fan supposition. The Excelsior class was the new "top of the line" and "face" of Starfleet until the Ambassador came along. But older designs generally remained in service, as evident in TNG and DS9.
Now who is speculating?

The Excelsior was on "Encounter at Farpoint", its a ship that been present from TNG to Voyager ... it was there in the FIRST TNG episode and in the LAST Voyager episode, granted there was a Miranda in "Endgame" too but the Miranda capabilities are well known in TNG and DS9.

Plus we do know when the Excelsior entered service because it was in the movies, we also know the age of the Constitution class that had a major refit before the Excelsior entered service, likewise both the Miranda and Oberth class are older the Excelsior, how older? never stated but certainly older because the Reliant and the Grissom were in service as the Excelsior was not.

No speculation here, simple facts.

As for the Ambassador, for whatever reasons the ship only had appearances in TNG, considering the Excelsior was a common sight in DS9 it doesnt seem the Ambassador class was meant to "replace" the Excelsior since that never happened, the most common sight of non-hero was Excelsior ... also a fact.


Quote:
I don't know where you get this "research" from, but canonical evidence/"facts" proves otherwise. Everything in this point is, once again, nothing but fan supposition.
You been engaging in speculation and not facts.

Fact is the Constitution class was never seen again since TNG movie era, you are SPECULATING about they being in service with nothing to prove it and the only proof you have is wreckage, in fact in the graveyard of Wolf 359 there is the USS Bonestell that happens to be a Oberth and I should not need to say anything else since its very clear how capable they were in TNG.


Quote:
The Miranda was indeed a versatile workhorse for Starfleet. However...


The Soyuz wasn't a Miranda variant, but a separate class based on the Miranda's design. Much in the same way the Centaur and Curry/Raging Queen were based on design elements of the Excelsior.
Always intended to "clearly an older style starship" as noted in the script, in the end they had to modify the Miranda model for it due to budget.

So no, it was not what you say because ... its not what was done, its a modified Miranda model because THAT is what they did, the Soyuz class comes from the script that was developed before they had to modify the Miranda model for it because budget.

Nothing of the sort with your other examples because they were created for different reasons, the USS Bozeman was always intended to be a Soyuz class, "clearly an older style starship".

Quote:
As for the rest, the only thing we know for sure is that two examples of the Miranda class met quick ends making a suicide run into the enemy's formation, in an attempt to break through to DS9. We have no information on the Miranda's overall performance in the Dominion War.
Yet we do in TNG in what capacity the ship were used.


Quote:
So, being at the end of it's service life, is more supposition.
And so is your saying they were, I mean we do see one in "endgame" but serious, they are ANCIENT at this point.


Quote:
There were plans to slowly replace the Oberth with the Nova, over time, starting in the 2370s. So, it's not a stretch to find a few in service during STO's time frame. There's some room to play around with the opening provided by the aforementioned facts.
No, there isnt.

The Oberth we see in TNG are relegated to even lighter duties that the Miranda class, one is even on a loan to civilian agency and carries a NAR prefix.

Plus STO is quite clear those ships are replicas, considering the Oberth prefix numbers we talking about ships that more then likely pre-date the Constitution class.

Plus the Nova was intended to replace the GALAXY class according to the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual, not the Oberth.



Quote:
The Victory, Gettysburg, and Magellan served in the Dominion War, and the Hathaway was returned to service sometime after Wolf 359 (it served in Picard's blockade task force during the Klingon Civil War). The Valkyrie and Stargazer serve as museum ships in a "ready reserve" state, ready to be reactivated as needed. The fate of the Constellation and Gihlan remain unknown. This is information from on-screen and background information provided by Rick Sternbach.
Only the Victory and Hathaway are confirmed to be Constellation class, Valkyrie and Gihlan are mentioned on the Star Trek: The Magazine but I have no idea were the hell are you pulling that,even Memory Beta doesnt make such claims.



Quote:
There is a world of difference ...
I had enough.

We all make conjectures yet those are that, you cannot say "this are the facts" and then engage on conjectures.

I give you the Miranda being in "Endgame" because its there, I can make conjunctures about it but fact is ... its there.

No Oberth was used after TNG, this is a fact ... why? maybe they felt the ship was too old or some other reason but fact is, it wasnt ... and "Emissary" doesnt count since its the Battle of Worf 359 and thus those ships were there.

At one point ships will be retired, we cannot have 500 years old ships because nostalgia, at one point we have to let go ... holding on the past and come with the more bizarre reasons because I *really* want to fly some ships, screw everything else.

Ships are too old, at one point the flying museum WILL bother me to the point I will refuse to queue ... you want to fly the ship? fine, it exists so FINE ... be as capable as the latest design? NO! a F-4 is not as capable as a F-22 and here we are ...
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Captain
Join Date: Mar 2013
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# 42
07-17-2014, 03:47 AM
@f2pdrakron:




Quote:
There is no "evidence" either way, you cannot use "they never said all were removed from service" as evidence they were in service.


I was responding to admiral's apparent assertion that because the Constellation was cooked up as the Stargazer, rather than going with the original plan of a Constitution (refit), somehow qualifies as a piece of evidence that the Constitution (refit) was no longer in service. Something I disagree with.


Reading comprehension is your friend.






Quote:
Now who is speculating?

The Excelsior was on "Encounter at Farpoint", its a ship that been present from TNG to Voyager ... it was there in the FIRST TNG episode and in the LAST Voyager episode, granted there was a Miranda in "Endgame" too but the Miranda capabilities are well known in TNG and DS9.




If I were speculating, I would say so. I know the difference.



Now for some "facts".....



1. How is the amount of time the Excelsior appeared on-screen relevant to the discussion. Same for the Miranda



And....



2. Incorrect. The full capabilities of the Miranda class was never demonstrated on screen, in TNG or DS9. At least, if Star Trek II is used as a "yardstick". Mostly due to FX budgets being what they are for television compared to big movie productions.







Quote:
Plus we do know when the Excelsior entered service because it was in the movies, we also know the age of the Constitution class that had a major refit before the Excelsior entered service, likewise both the Miranda and Oberth class are older the Excelsior, how older? never stated but certainly older because the Reliant and the Grissom were in service as the Excelsior was not.


Actually, the exact date that the Excelsior entered service has never been firmly stated. All we know is that it entered line service sometime between Star Trek V and Star Trek VI. Prior to that, it was a testbed for the transwarp drive experiments of the 2280s.


As for the rest, age of design is largely irrelevant up to this point.






Quote:
No speculation here, simple facts.



Which is mostly more speculation on your part combined with irrelevant points to the overall discussion. You're going off way into left field here.







Quote:
As for the Ambassador, for whatever reasons the ship only had appearances in TNG, considering the Excelsior was a common sight in DS9 it doesnt seem the Ambassador class was meant to "replace" the Excelsior since that never happened, the most common sight of non-hero was Excelsior ... also a fact.


Which is irrelevant.



I never said the Excelsior class was replaced by the Ambassador in service. Only supplanted by the Ambassador as the "face" of Starfleet, just as the Excelsior replaced the Constitution as the "face" of Starfleet.



This is no more evident than when a new class is chosen to carry the Enterprise name, the "flagship" of the Fleet sporting the latest and greatest in innovation.



But that in no way means that the older ships are put out to pasture. That was one of my main points all along.




Quote:
You been engaging in speculation and not facts.

Fact is the Constitution class was never seen again since TNG movie era, you are SPECULATING about they being in service with nothing to prove it and the only proof you have is wreckage, in fact in the graveyard of Wolf 359 there is the USS Bonestell that happens to be a Oberth and I should not need to say anything else since its very clear how capable they were in TNG.



Like I said, if I were speculating, then I would say so. I use canonical material to support my position.


The fact that Constitution (refit) wreckage appeared on screen makes it canon that design was what we were looking at. Same goes for the Olympia in DS9.


The basic "Rule of Thumb" in canonical discussions applies here. Period.



The Bonestell's wreckage wasn't in the graveyard scene, by the way. The U.S.S. Bonestell came later in Wolf 359 lore, when it was shown for a split second being destroyed in the DS9 pilot episode.



In any case, what the hell does the Bonestell have to do with any of this?





Quote:
Always intended to "clearly an older style starship" as noted in the script, in the end they had to modify the Miranda model for it due to budget.

So no, it was not what you say because ... its not what was done, its a modified Miranda model because THAT is what they did, the Soyuz class comes from the script that was developed before they had to modify the Miranda model for it because budget.

Nothing of the sort with your other examples because they were created for different reasons, the USS Bozeman was always intended to be a Soyuz class, "clearly an older style starship".


None of which invalidates what I say, for the most part. Yes, they used parts of the Miranda model because of budget and script. But canon clearly states that it's the Soyuz class, not one of the several Miranda class variants that have appeared over the years. In other words, another class of starship. Not simply a variant, like the Brittain or Saratoga. Those are facts.



As for the last, that's largely beside the point. The fact of the matter is, like the Soyuz class, they were based on design aspects from another class, namely the Excelsior in this case. My point stands.





Quote:
Yet we do in TNG in what capacity the ship were used.
.




You are incorrect. TNG never demonstrated operational capability of the class. What individual vessels were used for is largely irrelevant, except to demonstrate the Miranda's versatility. Which is something I agreed with in previous posts. It is a true workhorse.




Quote:
And so is your saying they were, I mean we do see one in "endgame" but serious, they are ANCIENT at this point.


The fact that they were still in line combat service during the Dominion War, rather than serving across the board as simple transports and training ships, more than supports my point.



And like I said before, if you bothered reading all of my posts, there is a difference between the age of individual vessels and the age of a design. It's ridiculous to assert that all of the Mirandas (if any) we've seen in DS9 were elderly vessels dating back a century, since a lot of the evidence points to the contrary.




Quote:
No, there isnt.

The Oberth we see in TNG are relegated to even lighter duties that the Miranda class, one is even on a loan to civilian agency and carries a NAR prefix.

Plus STO is quite clear those ships are replicas, considering the Oberth prefix numbers we talking about ships that more then likely pre-date the Constitution class.

Plus the Nova was intended to replace the GALAXY class according to the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual, not the Oberth.



1. I will concede this one point. I based that statement on a blurb from Memory Alpha I read once concerning the "Voyager" episode "Equinox". Funny thing is, I haven't found any correlation for that claim in my other readings.


2. This is true. But I do not see where it has any baring in the discussion at hand.


3. STO makes no claim of the sort. And issue of the U.S.S. Grissom's registry number is just one of those annoying little inconsistencies we Trekkies have to deal with.


4. The ST:TNG TM is neither canonical nor valid source material. A good bit of what was in that tome has been invalidated by later material over the course of TNG and DS9's run.






Quote:
Only the Victory and Hathaway are confirmed to be Constellation class, Valkyrie and Gihlan are mentioned on the Star Trek: The Magazine but I have no idea were the hell are you pulling that,even Memory Beta doesnt make such claims.



Where "the hell" I'm "pulling" this from is from that same series of articles written by Rick Sternbach regarding the class. Which makes it a valid source until newer material renders it invalid.


As for the Hathaway being returned to active service, that is supported by on screen canon.





Quote:
I had enough.

We all make conjectures yet those are that, you cannot say "this are the facts" and then engage on conjectures.

I give you the Miranda being in "Endgame" because its there, I can make conjunctures about it but fact is ... its there.

No Oberth was used after TNG, this is a fact ... why? maybe they felt the ship was too old or some other reason but fact is, it wasnt ... and "Emissary" doesnt count since its the Battle of Worf 359 and thus those ships were there.

At one point ships will be retired, we cannot have 500 years old ships because nostalgia, at one point we have to let go ... holding on the past and come with the more bizarre reasons because I *really* want to fly some ships, screw everything else.

Ships are too old, at one point the flying museum WILL bother me to the point I will refuse to queue ... you want to fly the ship? fine, it exists so FINE ... be as capable as the latest design? NO! a F-4 is not as capable as a F-22 and here we are ...



If you had enough, then why the hell did you respond to begin with? I already stated that I was done with derailing the thread. But your responses took on an insulting tone, combined with a bunch of irrelevant info and factual inaccuracies, that I felt compelled to respond.


And nothing I said was conjecture. It was based on information from valid sources.



That being said...



1. How is a Miranda being present in "Endgame" even relevant to the discussion?



2. That is incorrect. There were two Oberths shown in the Battle of Sector 001, in ST:FC.



3. Individual ships will be retired. But a design can serve for decades, perhaps a century or more. We have seen this in the fact that some of the designs seen in TNG and DS9 were getting close to the century mark. I will agree that there will come a point where technology will make a ship design irrelevant. However, it's not within the the timespan that many fans seem to think, as demonstrated in TNG and DS9.




4. As with the example of the U.S.S. Forrestal, another apples to oranges comparison. And one I will not bother addressing. I already discussed that in my last response to the admiral.
It's not "J.J. Trek". It's "Star Trek". Get it right, fanbois.

The so-called "Abramsverse" is part of Star Trek lore now, like it or not.

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Join Date: Jul 2012
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# 43
07-17-2014, 08:24 AM
it's simple They had to redub Geordi's scene in the Battle to change it from Connie to Constellation. Meaning they didn't want the Connie in TNG. For budget reasons they put the ST3 wreckage in the graveyard. but we NEVER saw another connie in TNG era again.

Ambassadors did replace the Excel as the flagship class but it took longer to make thus the Excel still had a role where as the connie was completely outdone my Excel and where phased out as more excels were built. And since there wouldn't be many Galaxy class ships during DW (10 at most) the other fleets likely had the Ambassadors filling that role.

And while Soyuz is technically a seperate class it's in the end a miranda with an extended rear and planetary defense phasers in the pylons

We have roughy 6 to 8 Constellations known and only one confirmed in service. while the names of otjhers have been used it's a common thing for Starfleet to have several ships named the same. We know of 2 different Saratoga's existed. ST4 full Miranda and Sisko's Variant. As for Hathaway. that could be where the old ship was towed to after the war game and they scrapped the barrel for that fleet during the Klingon Civil War. Data's ship the Sutherland a nebula had to evacuate decks in order to use it's weapons. So they needed ships the Hathaway is there collecting dust. they kbnow she still works, just needs dil and antimatter and some weapons and she's good to go.

the main reason we see so many miranda's, oberths, and Excels is they built a freaking lot of them. Heck the Excels tie the connie for the longest time as the flagship class and is still in production today. but considering losses during the DW the miranda is near the end of service life. Excel still has some thanks to Lakota. We know the Oberth is done except in civilian use.
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