Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 400
# 21
07-08-2014, 05:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjudicatorhawk View Post
The XP is constant per time unit - so it would just be decreasing the amount of projects you need to run to hit cap. Sorry, I didn't explicitly say that if we, say, doubled the amount of time any given project takes, we would also be doubling its XP.
So a net wash. That only leaves your XP progression curve to contend with. 350 hours per school is quite high and you've got some huge jumps in there (from rank 2 to rank 3 comes to mind). As it presently stands it will take people years to complete this thing. See my two questions, above.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,926
# 22
07-08-2014, 05:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by raptor63549 View Post
That's good news.

Is the amount of XP required to get to each level being looked at or the amount of XP per hour being looked at for possible refinement?


My personal opinion of it is that it's actually too low to start out (I can craft a mk VI item right off the bat and go from 0 to 2 in one craft), but the curve is way too steep (getting to 3 takes 16 more mk VIs), and of course if the time I have seen calculations for seems a bit on the long side considering how many schools there are.


Also I think materials need looked at a bit. I swear EVERYTHING needs magnasite. I always seem to run out of that while I have plenty of other stuff. (also we need to be able to get materials from the crafting console so we can actually test high level crafting. Having to gind stuff interferes with that and queues don't happen on tribble)
These are some good points too.


And Hawk's suggestion would make it LESS grindy. You get the same overall XP, and have to do less clicking.
Which means you can spend more time doing something else, like PVE, material gathering, or pvp.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 507
# 23
07-08-2014, 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by raptor63549 View Post
That's good news.

Is the amount of XP required to get to each level being looked at or the amount of XP per hour being looked at for possible refinement?


My personal opinion of it is that it's actually too low to start out (I can craft a mk VI item right off the bat and go from 0 to 2 in one craft), but the curve is way too steep (getting to 3 takes 16 more mk VIs), and of course if the time I have seen calculations for seems a bit on the long side considering how many schools there are.
"Is the amount of XP required...going to be looked at"? Maybe. The XP curve is structured the way it is because the system is designed for 4 different types of player - super casual, casual, midcore, and super hardcore. It's less of a curve and more of 4 different curves stuck together - thus the extreme breakpoint around level 3 that many players have noticed.

As you point out, the initial XP values are extremely low. Part of this is due to the tutorial that isn't in-game yet - we give you the components to make a Mark 2 item for free and walk you through the creation process. We wanted that creation to give you enough XP to hit level 1 - so 1 5-minute project had to be enough XP to ding. Another reason it's so low is because you start with only one R+D slot - when you unlock the 2nd and then the 3rd slot, the curves increase in steepness under the assumption you'll do projects in all available slots. (Worth noting that this does NOT occur for the 4th and 5th slots, making all projects you run in those slots "bonus time" from our perspective).

Of course we don't expect players to play 24 hours of the day 7 days a week. We know the patterns of play that most of our players follow, and the system is supposed to be a long-term but achieveable/attainable goal for these players.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 879
# 24
07-08-2014, 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjudicatorhawk View Post
And more tuning can still be done
What of the tuning to reduce the time it actually takes? Or the gross waste of materials in leveling? Plus, if you make it take a lot longer per project and raise XP gains accordingly, you create the additional issue of "I want to make an item but it's going to take a week to craft, during which one of my best DOffs is unavailable." Most people will answer that with "Screw that, I'll just get something close to that item from the Exchange/Fleet Store/Rep Store." I have a solution to both of those:

Take the XP off of items. Put them instead into Research projects - things with low material costs and high exp gains. And preferably shorter timers. Because this system is "Research and Development." I don't see much in the way of Research so far. This will additionally have the benefit of fixing the problem of "I'm spending tons of resources making vendor trash items and wasting my time."

Though, none of this fixes the big issue: 350 hours to get to Level 15 in a school is entirely unacceptable. People still will elect not to use the system, because the marginal boost in item quality and slightly higher desire will not outweigh the daunting grind that this system is. Reputations USED to get away with it because there were fewer of them - fewer sources of late-game gear. And, it wasn't something you had to actively babysit - this system is. Players are sick of Rep grinding. This is basically another one of those, except it costs more, takes more attention, and has rewards that are only marginally better than what we have now. So, Hawk... want players to use this system (as I assume you do, considering you've put so much effort into it)? Reduce the time required. 150 hours MIGHT be an acceptable compromise.
CHARACTER GRID (@Lord-Ice):
___ |___ _ Fed ____| ____ _KDF __ ____| Rom
Tac_|_Thomas Hale_| __ __Illusion _____| Silence (K)
Eng | ___Antilles _ _| _ Mirror Rygobeth__| N'Vek (F)
Sci _| __ Rygobeth _| _Lukor Son of Q'Tar | Devala (F)
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,926
# 25
07-08-2014, 05:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by icegavel View Post
What of the tuning to reduce the time it actually takes? Or the gross waste of materials in leveling? Plus, if you make it take a lot longer per project and raise XP gains accordingly, you create the additional issue of "I want to make an item but it's going to take a week to craft, during which one of my best DOffs is unavailable." Most people will answer that with "Screw that, I'll just get something close to that item from the Exchange/Fleet Store/Rep Store." I have a solution to both of those:

Take the XP off of items. Put them instead into Research projects - things with low material costs and high exp gains. And preferably shorter timers. Because this system is "Research and Development." I don't see much in the way of Research so far. This will additionally have the benefit of fixing the problem of "I'm spending tons of resources making vendor trash items and wasting my time."

Though, none of this fixes the big issue: 350 hours to get to Level 15 in a school is entirely unacceptable. People still will elect not to use the system, because the marginal boost in item quality and slightly higher desire will not outweigh the daunting grind that this system is. Reputations USED to get away with it because there were fewer of them - fewer sources of late-game gear. And, it wasn't something you had to actively babysit - this system is. Players are sick of Rep grinding. This is basically another one of those, except it costs more, takes more attention, and has rewards that are only marginally better than what we have now. So, Hawk... want players to use this system (as I assume you do, considering you've put so much effort into it)? Reduce the time required. 150 hours MIGHT be an acceptable compromise.
Sounds acceptable too. But remember, there is always the "quick finish" button for the impatient ones.

As for the Crafting's curve, I would think that it should not take more than Twice the reputation system's curve.

You can get all the reputations to 5 in around 40 days.
Getting your crafting maxed out (If you are doing all schools with unlimited mats) in 90 days sound reasonable, and long term. That's almost 3 months.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 776
# 26
07-08-2014, 05:39 PM
Hawk, since you haven't finalized this yet, I will put forth the following replies to that you have said.

350 hours total to level one school to level 15 comes out to about 15 days. That is livable if I only have to slot one project a day, like a rep.

Making projects take longer is not what I would call the optimal solution. For that, I would have liked a queue where I can slot a bunch of projects back to back and then run them all. And if I run out of materials or components, well, that's my lookout.

Making projects longer, while kinder to us on materials (if I understand you correctly) makes it so that a new character leveling crafting might level past the Mk of whatever he is crafting.

Here is another idea. Why not leave the project times as they are now. Then create a new project that just takes in raw materials or components, and takes 20 hours like a rep project, and then only gives you xp in that crafting school. That way, if people want to craft something, they can get a bit of xp and an item. If they just want to level up quick, they can take the 20 hour project. People starting out can get gear, and existing level 50's can just get to the good stuff.

If fact, yes, please offer this as an option. I'll await judgement from the others here, but I think it could be the best of both worlds here.
Joined September 2011
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Last edited by malkarris; 07-08-2014 at 05:39 PM. Reason: typos
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 616
# 27
07-08-2014, 05:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjudicatorhawk View Post
Part of this is due to the tutorial that isn't in-game yet - we give you the components to make a Mark 2 item for free and walk you through the creation process.
I imagine you Devs have considered this, but just in case...
Whatever the Mark 2 item is, I hope it's something which won't wind up en masse on the Exchange.

Keep up the good work. The jury's still out for me on the crafting revamp. But these updates (and the Dev interactions on the forum) are very appreciated. Thank you.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 879
# 28
07-08-2014, 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpalelena View Post
You can get all the reputations to 5 in around 40 days.
Getting your crafting maxed out (If you are doing all schools with unlimited mats) in 90 days sound reasonable, and long term. That's almost 3 months.
As a matter of fact, it's 35 days your first go-round (20 with a Sponsorship). And you only need to slot one project a day. To do this with every School (which you can't, that's 7 projects slots with max 5), it would take one day per item to get to Level 15 with the same effort as a Reputation. It takes 50 Mk VI items to get to level four. That's 50 days right there. Getting crafting to the point where you can use it in end-game will take years.
CHARACTER GRID (@Lord-Ice):
___ |___ _ Fed ____| ____ _KDF __ ____| Rom
Tac_|_Thomas Hale_| __ __Illusion _____| Silence (K)
Eng | ___Antilles _ _| _ Mirror Rygobeth__| N'Vek (F)
Sci _| __ Rygobeth _| _Lukor Son of Q'Tar | Devala (F)
Career Officer
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 53
# 29
07-08-2014, 06:00 PM
an ascetic change to the new exchange tabs please.

right now they are listed way below the duty officers. can the Kit Modules be moved under the personal equipment tab so they are next to the kits?

also the R&D be moved up as well? possibly put under a super R&D tab.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 600
# 30
07-08-2014, 06:01 PM
It would be cute if Fed captains would get access to Omega Leonis after cumpleting "Surface Tension" as well.
"Everything about the Jham'Hadar is lethal!" - Eris
Original Join Date: January 30th, 2010
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