Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,008
# 11
07-17-2014, 01:10 PM
I may have to use combat supply and try out that Systems Engineer in the battlezone.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,804
# 12
07-17-2014, 01:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
You've always been an exceedingly vocal opponent of power creep in STO, yet now you are proposing increasing the utility/power of every Doff by an exponential amount, by changing their "chance on activate" abilities into "always happens" effects. You can't have it both ways, DDIS.

"Chance of X when Y" has always been a core design concept of Duty Officer active roster abilities. Exceptions have been made over the ~1.5 years since the system's introduction, but we haven't thrown out the rule. Doffs are intended to be fun, extra effects to existing abilities. Not game-changing, build-altering abilities. The existence of A2B Technicians (and their ilk), and the resulting builds they have spawned, are an anomaly that was never intended to happen in this system, and which we don't intend to repeat.
oh yes i can not all power creep is created equal. like these new traits, i wonder if i can now reach the shield res cap, sustained, not spiked to. if i stack EPtS3, 8472 rep shield res trait, an elite shield, and this new lockbox trait, someone do the math on that. that is power creep. the shield penetration on high DPS beam boats is about to be boosted an entire 8%! those ships are at the same red alert for a 10 minutes to a half hour, 45 seconds is nothing to them. that is power creep. a 5/2 weapons escort that can run an AtB build, move near as fast as the bug, has a fleet cruiser shield mod, and a 5th tac console, thats power creep. nothing i suggested for these doffs is withing miles of THAT power creep.


you wanna know what AtB doffs don't do? they don't in any way make your shield resistance, peek spike damage, peek DPS, mobility, turn rate, or any of those things better. for all they do, no were do they push out the goal posts on anything. all AtB does for cruisers these days is increase their self sufficient survivability, and without it they are the weakest link. they cant avoid damage like fast movers, all they can do is tank. before AtB builds, tac cruisers were a very underpowered concept, due to how poor their survivability was. its actually more balanced now! i don't see it as a problem that its the default thing to use were you can, so is EPtS, FAW with beams, CRF with cannons, there's no real difference.

the truth is, tech+AtB is not that bad, more then anything it just makes you more self sufficient in pugs. with the sheer power of healers on organized teams, those gains are irreverent. the escort with the most mobility and turn rate is still the most effective, the bug is still the best.

doffs have the potential to add in new ways of building ships, new reasons to use skills. the TBR doff is a perfect example of this, there's no chance of it pulling or pushing. i think a great deal of thinking need to go into this exact type of thing, the system will have these anomalies, as long as you insist on following a philosophy that makes them anomalies. as long as you make everything but AtB doffs, the TBR pull doff, TB shield drain doff, and AtD doff hamstrung by chance occurrences, they will always be this massive, on paper, outlier.


i know you guys don't like AtB, but you cant nerf it out of existence. instead, you should try marginalizing it, remove chance roles on things like beam cooldown and cannon coldown doffs, stuff like that. make it so you just need 1 purple, or 2 blues, or 3 greens to get the max effect. is that power creep? yes and no, i really need to think of a good word for this, but what it is is 'within goal posts power creep', its not letting you do anything you couldn't do by just slotting 2 copies of a skill. instead you trade a very high value active roster slot for uptime on a certain thing. this would takes value away from AtB builds, if you could a la carte pick and choose skills you want cooled down near global, without the blanket cooldown and the associated disruption to your aux levels. do this, and you don't need to nerf AtB, you have marginalized it until its less relevant.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus

Last edited by dontdrunkimshoot; 07-17-2014 at 01:59 PM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,703
# 13
07-17-2014, 02:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
You've always been an exceedingly vocal opponent of power creep in STO, yet now you are proposing increasing the utility/power of every Doff by an exponential amount, by changing their "chance on activate" abilities into "always happens" effects. You can't have it both ways, DDIS.

"Chance of X when Y" has always been a core design concept of Duty Officer active roster abilities. Exceptions have been made over the ~1.5 years since the system's introduction, but we haven't thrown out the rule. Doffs are intended to be fun, extra effects to existing abilities. Not game-changing, build-altering abilities. The existence of A2B Technicians (and their ilk), and the resulting builds they have spawned, are an anomaly that was never intended to happen in this system, and which we don't intend to repeat.
like pvp only mods for weapons which would be a bad design choice, since you prefer to things to remain identical between pvp and pve. Oh wait *read crafting patch notes again*

bort for the longest time, systems has jumped 10 steps down the power creep rabbit whole, and occasional glanced in the opposite direction. the problem is: there is too much chance of x procing y occurring with proc z which rolls for a crit while chance to buff b is up on random group member c

the damage is done, more consistency and opportunity cost is a good way to balance things out. Some of the common active roster doff powers were simply not designed while [pen] torps, can bypass shields, with an added 3 traits rolling for the same effect, on a boat with a universal consoles which adds another percentage to by-pass shields, on a set-bonus to add kinetic damage to hull on critical hits with....
so bring them up to snuff, and be done with it. it is much more enjoyable for all if we know what we can expect from equipment instead of adding proc chances, on top of proc effects, on top of activation prods, on top oc crit chances, with crit effects, and secondary prods going of on dual proc weapons with 8 flavors of dual prods happening none or all at once....and thats what a tuffli can do
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,881
# 14
07-17-2014, 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
oh yes i can not all power creep is created equal. like these new traits, i wonder if i can now reach the shield res cap, sustained, not spiked to. if i stack EPtS3, 8472 rep shield res trait, an elite shield, and this new lockbox trait, someone do the math on that. that is power creep. the shield penetration on high DPS beam boats is about to be boosted an entire 8%! those ships are at the same red alert for a 10 minutes to a half hour, 45 seconds is nothing to them. that is power creep. a 5/2 weapons escort that can run an AtB build, move near as fast as the bug, has a fleet cruiser shield mod, and a 5th tac console, thats power creep. nothing i suggested for these doffs is withing miles of THAT power creep.
I absolutely agree.


The SDO and the Technician here have no consistency to them. Even with 3 equipped, there's less than a 50% chance you'll get the desired effect on the tachyon beam and only a 27% chance you'll get the exotic damage bonus (for 10 secs and you get a chance at it no more often than once in 30 secs) from technicians.

It's not Aux2Batt technicians that are the only outliers, many other doffs are just plain much better than that. Usual shield healing SDOs give good chances at a heal every minute or so. Damage control engineers also give you a reliable source of procs for lowering EPtX CDs.



Of the doffs presented, the Gravity Well one may be useful, you should see it do something with every GW you spawn. The tricobalt doff at least has a better chance at proccing, but it's still more of a gimmick. For one, tricobalts aren't all that amazing compared to newer photons or normal quantums, and then the ability still forces you to either go full on or pass. (If you count on the speed buff, you're far from target ->if it procs, fine, if not, the tricobalt will be blown up before it gets to target/target dies before it gets there/... If you don't expect the speed buff, you'll bomb the target from a close distance -> If it doesn't proc, fine, if it procs, you're caught in the blast before you get out.)


Obviously I don't comment on ground doffs, I'm a nood for ground.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix: Bring in the Allegiance class
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia: Design that long overdue Tier 5 C-Store Raptor
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var: Give us Asylums for Romulans

Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,804
# 15
07-17-2014, 02:25 PM
i just want to emphasize again the difference between ok power creep and bad power creep

bad power creep pushes a certain capability beyond its current limits, this lock box is filthy with this type of creep, plz never do this type again! this is the kind of creep i decry

ok power creep is something that might make it a bit easier to do something you can already do in the system, or helps sub par ships more then best ships. i advocate creative ways to do this, because things are far from all created equal in the system.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Lieutenant
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 99
# 16
07-17-2014, 02:42 PM
OOOO I need them science doffs...


Why only Reptilian and Aquatic though? Seems very strange.
Captain
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,258
# 17
07-17-2014, 02:44 PM
Thanks for the traditional infodump bort.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,141
# 18
07-17-2014, 02:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
You've always been an exceedingly vocal opponent of power creep in STO, yet now you are proposing increasing the utility/power of every Doff by an exponential amount, by changing their "chance on activate" abilities into "always happens" effects. You can't have it both ways, DDIS.

"Chance of X when Y" has always been a core design concept of Duty Officer active roster abilities. Exceptions have been made over the ~1.5 years since the system's introduction, but we haven't thrown out the rule. Doffs are intended to be fun, extra effects to existing abilities. Not game-changing, build-altering abilities. The existence of A2B Technicians (and their ilk), and the resulting builds they have spawned, are an anomaly that was never intended to happen in this system, and which we don't intend to repeat.
That's all well and fine, but on the other extreme, assigning pretty bad chances of lackluster procs to rarely used or high global cooldown abilities doesn't help either.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,881
# 19
07-17-2014, 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightybobcnc View Post
Thanks for the traditional infodump bort.
I wondered what I forgot to add to my post:

Thanks Bort for this thread.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix: Bring in the Allegiance class
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia: Design that long overdue Tier 5 C-Store Raptor
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var: Give us Asylums for Romulans

Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 272
# 20
07-17-2014, 03:07 PM
The Grav Well and Ambush doffs seem semi and situationaly useful. Otherwise, about as good as the Hirogen DoFFs, and that is to say, not very.

We don't need to the Doffs to be game changers, but we DO need to notice their utility.
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