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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 51
02-14-2010, 09:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahinder
Kami:
I don't think I can explain my comments without violating forum rules.

Suffice to say, I find the 'well, they weren't all bad' to be utterly vile and revolting, and am very happy you won't get to act out your fantasies on Star Trek: Online.
again, i am not saying that they werent bad. Im not saying that they didnt do terrible things. They did. I have said it before in this thread. Nazis were as evil as one can get. Thats not the issue. The issue is that they didnt ONLY do evil things. Did they do evil things? YES! yes they did! was all they did evil? No. Not at all. Germany had an over 50% unemployment before Hitler took power. he changed that to under 1%. Is that an evil act? No. It is not. What he did With the power he achieved, thats evil. Cant believe i have to clarify this. I agree that killing jews and wants to take over the world with arms is a bad thing!

And again, im not talking about playing an evil nazi that wants to kill all non-nazi races. Im talking about a race recovered from evil grasps, a good race who wants to help people, not kill them-. A race that have learned the lesson that war is not the way. How come noone is listening to meŽ? Please: READ the posts. Dont just go "He said Nazi, lets beat the crap out of that facist bast-ard!"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 52
02-14-2010, 09:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KamiSilver
Oh realy? Then please explain post-WW2 Germany Before and After Hitler got to power? And with all your righteous knowledge, make it historicly accurate. Since i am so dumb, and all my research into the subject ((since i am a WW2 history fan)) counts for nothing compared to yours.
No, this isn't the appropriate forum.

I did not call you dumb. I suggested you may be ignorant on the subject. The only reason my statement counts for more than yours is that your's is wildly inaccurate. I have no desire to engage in debate on it when there is plenty of information on the subject readily available to you.

(Besides, how does one explain post-WWII history before Hitler got in to power?)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 53
02-14-2010, 09:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KamiSilver
Nazis were as evil as one can get. Thats not the issue. The issue is that they didnt ONLY do evil things.
The evil they did was at the heart of being a Nazi. The good that they did was not. That's what you are missing.

It's like saying 'well, NAMBLA folks don't just diddle young boys, some of them do humanitarian work!' Sure. But the humanitarian work isn't a product of them being NAMBLA, it is done despite it.

Similarly, there is no good Nazi, there are Nazis who do good despite being Nazis.

Your fundamental premise is flawed and objectionable. It's like saying 'yes, but he tortures small children for a good cause.'

No, it's wrong, and it's bad.


If you really want to play someone from a regimented, disciplined society, there are a lot of other models to choose from. Why pick THIS one?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 54
02-14-2010, 09:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Callasan View Post
Not necessarily. The National Socialist Party was actually doing some good things for Germany post-WWi. What happened, though, is that a certain radical paper-hanger decided things were going a bit too slow, and as such decided he was gonna do something about it. Being he was highly charismatic, AND in tune with a disaffected populace (lots of hate in Gernmany for the rest of the world post-WWi, SPECIFICALLY because of the punitive treaties forced on them by the Allies), he was able to claw his way to power. To get around treaty provisions, he had to gradually build a fascist state so that the Allies wouldn't catch wind of what he was doing (tank production disguised as tractor production, etc.). When the people became disenchanted with the increasing regimentation, he provided a scapegoat in the form of the "Jewish International Conspiracy". Much like what both Bushs did in the US with the "Terrorist Threat".

He then went a little bonkers and decided the best way to acquire resources was to conquer...and thus WWII - and Adolf Hitler - entered history. Once started, it couldn't be stopped - and the man at the top went crazier and crazier.

Plenty of lessons to be learned here, which the TOS episode mirrored in it's plot. Germany doesn't want anybody getting ideas from him and starting the whole thing up again...for good reason, they bore the brunt of TWO world wars. Which is why their policy on "Nazi" ANYTHING.

The REAL lesson to be learned is that Utopia is impossible - as long as imperfect beings are the ones running the show. A Utopia would require massive changes in the way humans think and believe The Vulcan answer was to shut out emotion until they couldn't take it anymore - thus the "pon farr".

Think on that lesson, for a bit.
That, really, was my entire issue with the entire Nazi party. That the whole project necessitated a 'villain', a 'straw man' if you will, in order to get off the ground and be successful. The only way to motivate the people was to demonize an entire branch that did nothing but exist, and have something that you suspected the rest of the common people wanted.

In the Crusades, this was the Moorish territory. In Germany, it was the perceived Jewish success that is still believed to be true today by some people that think stereotypes are good generalizations. It's a carrot leading the horse down a path that, while it may get you where you're going and fast, doesn't exactly do much for the horse who just ends up tired, hungry, and confused by the end of it.

I was going to mention this, and found that someone had already done it for me in a rather brilliant way. So, the only other thing I'll point out is that I find the OP's naive concepts of 'good' and 'evil', and the assertion that one must be one or the other, a bit depressing. :/
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 55
02-14-2010, 09:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KamiSilver
again, i am not saying that they werent bad. Im not saying that they didnt do terrible things. They did. I have said it before in this thread. Nazis were as evil as one can get. Thats not the issue. The issue is that they didnt ONLY do evil things. Did they do evil things? YES! yes they did! was all they did evil? No. Not at all. Germany had an over 50% unemployment before Hitler took power. he changed that to under 1%. Is that an evil act? No. It is not. What he did With the power he achieved, thats evil. Cant believe i have to clarify this. I agree that killing jews and wants to take over the world with arms is a bad thing!

And again, im not talking about playing an evil nazi that wants to kill all non-nazi races. Im talking about a race recovered from evil grasps, a good race who wants to help people, not kill them-. A race that have learned the lesson that war is not the way. How come noone is listening to meŽ? Please: READ the posts. Dont just go "He said Nazi, lets beat the crap out of that facist bast-ard!"
He's just giving you a knee-jerk response because he heard the word "Nazi" and that's the response - that they all were supreme evil.

As one ages, one begins to realize that the world is NOT black and white, that all is only shades of gray. There is good inthe worst regimes, and evil in the best. The proportions of which are what determines the record that history will show...and the "Nazi" regime has a LOT of negative associated with it. So much so that most are willing to disregard what good they did and lomp 'em together.

The "Nazis" did some horrible things - problem is, afterward we ALL benefitted from what they did, to some extent. Example:

A lot of what we know about hypothermia treatements was learned by horriffic experiments that "Nazi" doctors perfomred on prisoners (political and otherwise) in water-filled chambers. They gradually FROZE people to death to learn how to thaw 'em out alive. The research was to benefit their pilots who had to bail out over the North Atlantic...so they could thaw 'em out alive instead of as meat. Thousands died - yet, after the war when the information came to light, the Allies used it instead of destroying it as "tainted", The "Nazis" did the deed - but the Allies reaped the benefit, with "clean" hands because it was those "evil Nazis" did the experiments in the first place.

Ends NEVER justifies the means - that was the basic mistake the National Socialist Party made back in the 1930s. Everything else grew from there. Funny, I see the same thing happening in the modern world - too many willing to push their ideas, their ideology despite the cost..and look where it led Germany.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 56
02-14-2010, 09:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by drakeborn View Post
No, this isn't the appropriate forum.

I did not call you dumb. I suggested you may be ignorant on the subject. The only reason my statement counts for more than yours is that your's is wildly inaccurate. I have no desire to engage in debate on it when there is plenty of information on the subject readily available to you.

(Besides, how does one explain post-WWII history before Hitler got in to power?)
Easy. Ruins and Dust. Ruins and Dust with a huge war-debt. Thats how you describe post ww2 germany Before Hitler got to power.
Again, i do not like Hitler. I do not stand for what the nazis did.

and im not saying its "All right to torture children, if it is for a good cause." Mr. Zahinder.
And for Mr/Miss YuriFoxfirega, let me say this. I try to view history in a gray scale, never black and white. If that is naive to you, the go ahead and think so.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 57
02-14-2010, 09:52 AM
Quit stealin' my lines, Callasan. :|
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 58
02-14-2010, 09:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KamiSilver
And for Mr/Miss YuriFoxfirega, let me say this. I try to view history in a gray scale, never black and white. If that is naive to you, the go ahead and think so.
Then why do you keep falsely asserting that the Nazi party was 'evil', or that anyone or anything can be 'good'?

The terms you are looking for are 'moral' and 'immoral'. These two words dicticate that, from the cultural zeitgeist, that the actions taken by the individuals or group are things that can be accepted to be admirable behavior, or deplorable.

It is immoral to kill someone in cold blood. It is less immoral, yet not quite moral, to kill someone to defend yourself. And it's the height of morality to kill someone to defend the innocent, most assuredly at the cost of your own life.

And it's Ms., for future reference.

EDIT: And while I'm thinking about it, make no mistake that there was a lot of immorality going on in the Nazi party that is inexcusable in a modern society. Even if the grand majority of the Nazi party had never seen an internment camp, much less participated in the actions that took place there, they condoned and accepted those actions at the time they were going on. Sympathy for the devil*, as it were, tends to be an immoral action to a lot of people.

*WARNING: This may be a metaphor, and is not to be read in a literal fashion. That defeats the purpose of it being a metaphor, after all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 59
02-14-2010, 09:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KamiSilver
"What if you take Nazis and turn them good guys? How would it be?"
I believe the correct answer is: it would be incredibly offensive.

Let me pose you a question, if someone ***** and murdered your mother would it bother you if I roleplayed that person as a hero in this game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KamiSilver
again, i am not saying that they werent bad. Im not saying that they didnt do terrible things. They did. I have said it before in this thread. Nazis were as evil as one can get. Thats not the issue. The issue is that they didnt ONLY do evil things.
You're missing an important fact... you can save a million men from a burning building. You can cure a thousand people of cancer. You can give a billion dollars to charity. If after that you **** one child, you're a baby raping paedophile. All that stuff you did before hand? That doesn't matter. It's gone. Nonsense. Of no value. Off the books. That last thing you did that was so heinous? THAT'S what you are, that's ALL you are, that's all you ever will be.

To even acknowledge anything but the villainy is a disservice and flies in the face of the magnitude of the crime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Callasan View Post
The "Nazis" did some horrible things - problem is, afterward we ALL benefitted from what they did, to some extent.
The dead people too?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 60
02-14-2010, 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KamiSilver
And again, im not talking about playing an evil nazi that wants to kill all non-nazi races. Im talking about a race recovered from evil grasps, a good race who wants to help people, not kill them-. A race that have learned the lesson that war is not the way. How come noone is listening to meŽ? Please: READ the posts. Dont just go "He said Nazi, lets beat the crap out of that facist bast-ard!"
I am listening and I agree that that was indeed what you said. I think the conclusion is... play the future-equivalent of a present-day German or some-such.

The problem is in wanting to continue with the word or concept of Nazi applied to your character (I think that's what you have -- or had -- in mind).

The words "Nationalist" and "Socialist" together, despite whatever logic one may put behind them, have become just too tainted for use in polite company to describe oneself (or one's character). We're swinging around labels now - dirty words, essentially - and the only problem (and one which can't lead to good arguments) would be wanting to hang onto the word or concept while wishing to explore a race that has presumably rejected that.

I don't remember the episode that well, but wouldn't the Ekosians have swept all that away? Have hardly been what they were before?
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