Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
02-15-2010, 05:48 AM
One simple truth: just sitting there and hoping it gets better does nothing. plenty of dead mmos to prove that.

The devs need to listen to the customer base, or said base goes elsewhere.


Most complaints aren't unreasonable after all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
02-15-2010, 06:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by claydermunch View Post
One simple truth: just sitting there and hoping it gets better does nothing. plenty of dead mmos to prove that.
The devs need to listen to the customer base, or said base goes elsewhere.
Most complaints aren't unreasonable after all.
Definitely. As I said, CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is a good thing. That doesn't mean what some people mean, "only say constructive things." It means make sure your criticism presents a GOAL, or possible way to that goal, not just a PROBLEM. For instance, to the repetitive mission problem:

non-constructive: "This game is boring! Missions are all the same! I quit!"
constructive: "There should be more variety within missions. Capturing ships/people is better than ALWAYS destroying them... change the number or arrangment of "scan X things," or maybe have some other surprises..."

It isn't that complaints are unreasonable. It's that they're not being well-reasoned, by and large. It takes about 10% of your brainpower to point out a problem--that isn't helpful. It takes quite a bit more to propose a solution to the problem. Solutions are far more useful than complaints.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStreaker
But you OP are a fanboi. Not to mention a whiny one whining about customers with issues, whom you've taken upon yourself to label them as whiners. I can see why others are so negative when it is you yourself that is just as negative if not moreso.
Quote:
Of course people like you applaud the way Cryptic has handled the Klingon faction(sic joke) as an example and think they can do no wrong with there being no room for improvement. You can applaud them for rushing the game before completion, just don't be so butt hurt when others think differently.
See, here's what I mean. I didn't say any of those things.

Quote:
Honestly if you don't like discussions, you don't belong on discussion forums.
Goose and gander, mate.

Quote:
Fanobys hate on the game and want to see changes.
Fanbois hate on those people over a video game.

There is only one negative group here.
And yours is the only hateful post in this thread. Nothing you've said provides any sort of help to anyone or anything whatsoever.

If you want something to be different, I suggest you follow this simple process:

1) Understand WHY it is currently not what you'd like it to be. Do this without BLAMING, which serves no purpose but to waste energy. "The developers rushed out crap" is blame, and doesn't lead to understanding. "The producers rushed the developers, and now the developers are trying to finish what they started" is still a bit blame-y, but it leads to the understanding that now that we're PAST release, the developers have the opportunity to respond in a way they couldn't before, if we take advantage of that opportunity. Without understanding how things are, you won't know how one change will effect something else you weren't thinking about.

2) Decide how you would like it to look. Any fool can tell you "this is wrong." It takes real thought to say WHY and to elaborate on what would be RIGHT. If you don't know what would be better, then you don't really know what it is you don't like anyway. Not all opinions will have substance, but they should at least have direction. For instance, if you don't like the way that the grouping mechanic actually PUNISHES grouping in space, say so: "I would like the game to encourage grouping more, without punishing solo players."

3) Propose a way to get what you wanted.
Now that you understand the current situation, and you know what you'd like in its place, come up with a plan to get there. For instance: "The extra kill XP in group missions doesn't outweigh the drastic increase in time for completing it. Providing a group bonus to XP would actually encourage grouping in space combat."

4) Present the idea for discussion, gather feedback, and make adjustments as necessary. Rinse and repeat until you see a result.

5) When all else fails, you might consider this game is just not for you. Cancel your subscription and find another, but don't spend energy and hatred trying to "take people with you" to teach the universe a lesson about not listening to you. The universe does many things, but it does not deign to learn lessons.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
02-15-2010, 06:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Staran View Post
Never happened. Never will in an MMO.
You will never understand that. The concept it too difficult. No point on discussing it.
That's where you're wrong.

An MMO doesn't, or at least shouldn't, be released as a framework, where you pay to flesh it out. But rather, as a fleshed out model where you pay to enjoy it and ADD to it.

That old argument "It's an MMO, they are never completed" is tired and worn and flawed.

Yes, the point of MMOs is that it continually grows and develops, but how does that equate to a game that doesn't have a finished base? If your argument had any worth to it, they could release a single instanced map with basic ragdolls of people and all you do is run around and chat. And call that an MMO.

I'm hoping that you can understand that. The concept is very easy. And there's a lot of point in discussing it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
02-15-2010, 06:32 AM
It's nice to know Cryptic supports you jerks treating Xcustomers like garbage.

This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines ~Dionaea
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
02-15-2010, 06:37 AM
The idea is that the perception of "finished base" can vary wildly from one person to another.

To me, this release is the most stable of any I've ever played. And I tend to play MMOs at launch. I've not encountered any game-breaking bugs, and I've had minimal downtime aside from server maintenance (which hasn't been as big a problem as with other games I've played).

To me, it's very stable. While gameplay can feel repetitive, the customization system keeps me pretty busy both in AND out of game. I think, given the producer's whip cracking, they finished the right parts of the game before releasing. The rest is just adding more mission content. That's better than, say, having a broken class, or having people constantly falling through the world, or major memory leaks crashing the game every half hour, all so you can say "Look, we have an endgame dungeon at release!"

It's about perception, which is different individually. This thread isn't about whether you feel the game is finished or not. This thread is about how maturely people handle those feelings. Maturity comes from understanding. Understanding comes mostly from experience, though not always. People who have experienced launches before, and have reflected objectively on those experiences, are voicing their feedback in a more mature way on average.

And we're still calling for a LOT of things to be changed or added. We're just doing it in a way that welcomes people, including Devs, to listen... rather than inviting them to make us a "forum martyr" the way some would have it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
02-15-2010, 06:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xMentalxLintx
So, let's not waste any further time attempting to reason with Category B or C people, while they focus on trying to poison Category D. Offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism--which means criticize it, but also provide an alternative or potential fix, not just some self-important ultimatum or "prophecy" of doom.
Sorry, but you just contradicted yourself. First you basically say you arent even going to bother with group B&C and imply they are just trolls, but then you urge other people to offer constructive criticism including ways to solve a problem instead of just complain about it. Yet, that is exactly what you did about the "problem" of group B&C.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
02-15-2010, 06:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YunoLegacy
That's where you're wrong.

An MMO doesn't, or at least shouldn't, be released as a framework, where you pay to flesh it out. But rather, as a fleshed out model where you pay to enjoy it and ADD to it.

That old argument "It's an MMO, they are never completed" is tired and worn and flawed.

Yes, the point of MMOs is that it continually grows and develops, but how does that equate to a game that doesn't have a finished base? If your argument had any worth to it, they could release a single instanced map with basic ragdolls of people and all you do is run around and chat. And call that an MMO.

I'm hoping that you can understand that. The concept is very easy. And there's a lot of point in discussing it.
You and people like you are never ever going to get it. It is ok.
Mmo's must be a framework.
If they spent another 2 years fleshing this out, only to release it and have is
1) a bug at it's core destroys everything anyways or
2) this isn't the "direction" people wanted.
They would be in the same boat that they are in now but more poor and less of a chance on getting what people who stick around will see an end product.
I have been a programmer for so long and, even of my apps don't even come close to what mmo's are, I know of it's methodology.
It's cool, man. Don't put mmo devs on too high of a pedestal
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
02-15-2010, 06:51 AM
STO needed another year in Beta. What we have is an incomplete product.

Basically Cryptic wanted to get the rest of the game implimented on the player's dime instead of their own. Cryptic = greedy. That's the sole reason a vast number of the people on these forums are negative.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
02-15-2010, 06:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AegisPrime View Post
This.

Loving the game, hating the whiners.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Staran View Post
i hope more people quit.
The whinning gets to me.
Still, after they get everything stable, there is alot they can do with this game.
There's a real simple cure. Stop reading the whiney posts. Making a thread about whining about the whiners is not productive.

To others, this isn't 6 years ago when WOW launched so Cryptic should know better.

This is also not cryptics first MMO so they REALLY SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

Lastly you realize this is a business? That being said what happens when all these people do quit and cryptic has barely enough money to cover expenses....can you say horizons/istaria?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
02-15-2010, 06:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Staran View Post
You and people like you are never ever going to get it. It is ok.
Mmo's must be a framework.
If they spent another 2 years fleshing this out, only to release it and have is
1) a bug at it's core destroys everything anyways or
2) this isn't the "direction" people wanted.
They would be in the same boat that they are in now but more poor and less of a chance on getting what people who stick around will see an end product.
I have been a programmer for so long and, even of my apps don't even come close to what mmo's are, I know of it's methodology.
It's cool, man. Don't put mmo devs on too high of a pedestal
Most MMOs have at least 3-4 years of actual development. Word is that STO had two.

Your points are based on hypothetical situations which may or may not happen. The direction of the game never conforms to everyone's ideals, as such you have to appeal to the majority. And the bug thing is just speculation.

They wouldn't be in the same boat. Chances are, they wouldn't have picked up the game to develop in the first place. And if they did, they would have had another two years to flesh it out futher. To close the gaps in the content, for example, rework the skill trees, allow the game to be more stable, actually put in some decent endgame content - heck maybe even a proper Klingon faction?

Congratulations on you being a programmer. Not that I'm sure it's relevant. A programmer only represents one aspect of game development, so your apparent knowledge of methodology is irrelevant.

Being a programmer yourself, would you consider it acceptable to release an 'app' (I'm assuming iPhone) that has gaping holes in it? Why would you pay for that application when you can get an application elsewhere for the same price or cheaper which does everything and more? You see what I'm getting at here?

And in the future, I would avoid the casual comments, "it's cool man" - it just makes you look like an arrogant, self-important jerk.

If you can't get what I've just typed, then there's little hope for you. I won't be wasting any more of my time trying to explain simple concepts to you.
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