Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
02-15-2010, 09:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FalconeeFalconee
Btw, the OP has forgot another group of players:

The old fashioned players, maybe older than the average MMO player. Those people who have played a lot of singleplayer games and love Star Trek. They are new to MMOs. So they are naive enough to think that if they are charged the money for a full and finished game they get it, and they are naive enough to think that paying 15 bugs per month grants them monthly AddOns like you can buy in the store. They arent familiar with the "throw your money away" thinking because they've being teached that pricing has something to do with quality.



This is my group. I really thought i could expect a finished game if i pay the money i would have been charged for every other game in the store. This finished game would be expanded and therefore i pay the monthly fee.

But truth hit me hard when OB started and i was told all the way that i cannot expect an MMO that i bought for more than 30 Ä be finished in any way. I do not understand this kind of thinking. In my oppinion it has something to do with the fact that people here in Europe and US have too much money, including kids.

I mean, you wouldnt go into the store and buy a book and they tell you: "Oh, we charge you the price of a normal book, but only half of the pages are written by now, the others are all white. If you want to read more than please buy the other pages later on."

I think the Retailers should be honest and say: "We have here STO, this is the ground version. It will be a very great game and we think you will have fun with it. But its not finished yet, so you pay 15Ä now and a monthly fee."
Well computer games are not books that much I guess is obvious so you cannot really compare the two. In terms of computer games none are ever truly finished any sense. Most games before release have up to 40% of the content removed before release ofthen because they cannot get it working in time. For standard games this is the only option because in theory they have a one time hit to get it out. With MMORPGS they can leave the unfinished parts in to be corrected later if required.

The other part it is very hard to test all aspects of the game even with beta's. Until you go live it is very hard to know how it will perform because people in beta play very differently to live. Plus just the vast numbers of people mean the combined out will be different.

So it is just the way MMORPG's are I cannot see that ever changing they will over time always be in a state of not beening finished. However this does not mean to say that the game is not playable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
02-15-2010, 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeal View Post
Yeah ... I am probably from this camp I guess. I don't want to be however.

I am more from camp E I think. - " MMO Veterans who have played various games from release, causing them to fear the buggy, empty, boring opening periods... which, let's face it, we will always sit through as we really do expect it, simply because it we are forced to. Now these folks would expect every game to release at the level of an older, more developed game because isnt about time that actually happened ?.
It'd be nice... but the market isn't such that people take big risks right now. And again, it's the folks holding the purse string, not the guys at the computers... and how many of THOSE execs do you think play video games? As a result, they don't understand the issues, or the benefit to waiting. It's unforunate, but it's something that's out there. Games can remain profitable on a very small number of subscriptions, so producers aren't the ones to appeal to regarding player happiness.... and the devs aren't the ones to yell at about rushing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supersixnine View Post
So what you're saying is that basically people in category D aren't capable of making their own judgement and rely on others to do it. These people also aren't capable of using the internet, google or anything else.
I'm saying that those people CAN be influenced by what they see other people saying. But mostly, what I said in the first post is that people in MMOs in general don't respond so much to how the GAME goes (SWG is a prime example), but rather the sense of community. When we look back on our first games, the things people talk the MOST about are player-driven aspects of the game. Fun with the guild, player events, PvP antics, all things driven by the COMMUNITY, not just the gameplay. That's what made MMOs so bloody popular.

If you tailor a game to the folks that constantly demand fresh new gameplay, or that demand completely bug-free patches every week, you get a schitzophrenic MMO that no one can predict from month to month, and a community to match.



A lot of folks in this thread don't seem to understand something. Criticism <> Negativity. People in here that throw around complaints, and claim that it's criticism that should be seen as helpful, are a problem. Being constructive doesn't mean agreeing, and criticism isn't negative.

Most of the complaints filling the boards are from a lack of understanding in one area or another.

Maybe it's not understanding how the business aspect of the game impacts development - those people miss out on the fact that now that the game is RELEASED, a lot of those business pressures are alleviated and the real community-driven development effort can begin.

Maybe it's not understanding how skill X relates to skill Y - those people miss out on how nerfing skill X, or buffing skill Y, can possibly ruin the other... and this happens in webs more complex than two skills.

Maybe it's not understanding the difference between asking for an existing feature to be adjusted, and asking for a completely new feature - those people miss out on a lot, because they expect the turn-around time on things to be too quick.

Maybe it's not understanding that disagreeing with someone doesn't make them wrong, and it certainly doesn't make them stupid - those people miss out on a LOT, because they are only ever able to see problems from ONE angle.

Maybe it's not understanding that MMOs are products of compromises - some people want A while others want B, and the developers have to decide which way to go or if a compromise can be reached.... and there are folks in BOTH camps that won't want to compromise (it's full 360 flight or nothing!), and those folks are usually the most vocal.

All of that is why step ONE in anything is to make sure you understand your side AND the other side. Not just enough to throw insults at them, but enough to UNDERSTAND why they feel that way. This helps you get to the root cause of a problem, if there is one. Usually, you find it's just a difference of opinion.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
02-15-2010, 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xMentalxLintx

/snip

Offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism--which means criticize it, but also provide an alternative or potential fix, not just some self-important ultimatum or "prophecy" of doom.
You are kidding right?

Propose a fix? This isn't a group effort here, were are customers, Cryptic is the provider. If I go to a restaurant and don't like how the food is prepared, I donít go back into the kitchen and offer pointers to the cook. This is a product, we are the consumers. I am under ZERO obligation to provide Cryptic with solutions, and more to the point they are under zero obligation to take player suggestions.

In fact, all the post you see with game/mechanic changes from the player base are falling on deaf ears anyway. Do you honestly believe the developers are coming to the forums looking for ideas? You have never worked on a large project before have you? Do you even understand how project management works? Design documentation? They didn't create a base framework and then sit back waiting for players to fill in the gaps for them.

It's simple, I as a consumer expect certain things from a product based primarily on how it was marketed, and what I was told I was being sold. If that product does not meet my expectations I, as the consumer, will be sure to inform the provider of that fact.

Now, having said all that, I am playing this game and enjoying myself. Primarily because I knew what I was getting (based on past experience with Cryptic and having played in CB). I am not disappointed because I knew ahead of time that Cryptic makes relatively shallow, yet fun, games. They don't make games that I would ever consider playing long term, but 6 months or so sure. As I am fond of saying, they make Checkers not Chess. I knew this going in, so I am not disappointed in the result. But if you think this game is going to be radically different in 6 months, a year, or even two years, you are kidding yourself. There is no reason to expect that, and plenty of reasons not to.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
02-15-2010, 10:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedryn View Post
You are kidding right?

Propose a fix? This isn't a group effort here, were are customers, Cryptic is the provider. If I go to a restaurant and don't like how the food is prepared, I donít go back into the kitchen and offer pointers to the cook. This is a product, we are the consumers. I am under ZERO obligation to provide Cryptic with solutions, and more to the point they are under zero obligation to take player suggestions.

In fact, all the post you see with game/mechanic changes from the player base are falling on deaf ears anyway. Do you honestly believe the developers are coming to the forums looking for ideas? You have never worked on a large project before have you? Do you even understand how project management works? Design documentation? They didn't create a base framework and then sit back waiting for players to fill in the gaps for them.

It's simple, I as a consumer expect certain things from a product based primarily on how it was marketed, and what I was told I was being sold. If that product does not meet my expectations I, as the consumer, will be sure to inform the provider of that fact.

Now, having said all that, I am playing this game and enjoying myself. Primarily because I knew what I was getting (based on past experience with Cryptic and having played in CB). I am not disappointed because I knew ahead of time that Cryptic makes relatively shallow, yet fun, games. They don't make games that I would ever consider playing long term, but 6 months or so sure. As I am fond of saying, they make Checkers not Chess. I knew this going in, so I am not disappointed in the result. But if you think this game is going to be radically different in 6 months, a year, or even two years, you are kidding yourself. There is no reason to expect that, and plenty of reasons not to.
Prepared to be talked down to by others who think customers should be treated like garbage. It doesn't matter how well put your thoughts are, and I think they were well put, this forum has yet to prove this wrong.

This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines ~Dionaea
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
02-15-2010, 10:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedryn View Post
You are kidding right?

Propose a fix? This isn't a group effort here, were are customers, Cryptic is the provider. If I go to a restaurant and don't like how the food is prepared, I donít go back into the kitchen and offer pointers to the cook. This is a product, we are the consumers. I am under ZERO obligation to provide Cryptic with solutions, and more to the point they are under zero obligation to take player suggestions.
.
You are comparing STO to restaurant food? Really?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedryn View Post
In fact, all the post you see with game/mechanic changes from the player base are falling on deaf ears anyway. Do you honestly believe the developers are coming to the forums looking for ideas? You have never worked on a large project before have you? Do you even understand how project management works? Design documentation? They didn't create a base framework and then sit back waiting for players to fill in the gaps for them.
.
They put out a framework to see what works, and what didn't work. Yep. And a mechanism to fix it. This engine developed the game in two years. Following that logic, it is possible to fix the problems that have developed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedryn View Post
It's simple, I as a consumer expect certain things from a product based primarily on how it was marketed, and what I was told I was being sold. If that product does not meet my expectations I, as the consumer, will be sure to inform the provider of that fact.
It is illegal in the US to say how bad the product they are trying to sell, is. Only how 'good' it is. You have to make money for your stockbrokers.

You shouldn't ever beleive what a person is saying about what he is selling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedryn View Post
But if you think this game is going to be radically different in 6 months, a year, or even two years, you are kidding yourself. There is no reason to expect that, and plenty of reasons not to.
The possibility is there. They have alot of stuff in the Star Trek IP.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
02-15-2010, 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedryn View Post
You are kidding right?

Propose a fix? This isn't a group effort here, were are customers, Cryptic is the provider. If I go to a restaurant and don't like how the food is prepared, I donít go back into the kitchen and offer pointers to the cook. This is a product, we are the consumers. I am under ZERO obligation to provide Cryptic with solutions, and more to the point they are under zero obligation to take player suggestions.

In fact, all the post you see with game/mechanic changes from the player base are falling on deaf ears anyway. Do you honestly believe the developers are coming to the forums looking for ideas? You have never worked on a large project before have you? Do you even understand how project management works? Design documentation? They didn't create a base framework and then sit back waiting for players to fill in the gaps for them.

It's simple, I as a consumer expect certain things from a product based primarily on how it was marketed, and what I was told I was being sold. If that product does not meet my expectations I, as the consumer, will be sure to inform the provider of that fact.

Now, having said all that, I am playing this game and enjoying myself. Primarily because I knew what I was getting (based on past experience with Cryptic and having played in CB). I am not disappointed because I knew ahead of time that Cryptic makes relatively shallow, yet fun, games. They don't make games that I would ever consider playing long term, but 6 months or so sure. As I am fond of saying, they make Checkers not Chess. I knew this going in, so I am not disappointed in the result. But if you think this game is going to be radically different in 6 months, a year, or even two years, you are kidding yourself. There is no reason to expect that, and plenty of reasons not to.

Restaurants do have feedback as well and while it is not easy to compare the two it works in terms of feedback the same way. If you just walk never to return the restaurant will never improve in the way you want because they have not got a clue what your problem is.

The same is true if you just say I hate the food. Well so what how can I do anything to fix it. It is not constructive. If you say I hate the food it had to much salt then they can look to reduce the amount of salt.

The game is the same if you say I hate the game well ok but the developers have nothing to work with your comment is lost. If you say for example I find the missions repeat too often that at least is contructive the developers have something to work with.


In term of expection well nothing is ever how you expect it. We all have an idea how we think it is going to be but the real world is always very different. If you put any text on the back of a product and asked people what they would expect from it you would never have a sole argeement on it different people would view it in different ways.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
02-15-2010, 10:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xMentalxLintx
Looking at the timeline on MMOs, reading the posts of a great many folks whining on these boards, and understanding the lure of the Star Trek license, it's pretty obvious where a lot of the negativity comes from in this game. We've got a few groups of people here:

a) MMO Veterans from years back, who've been through the betas and the bugs and the updates and the "updates," and who understand that MMOs are vastly different from other types of games in that they aren't released as complete, self-contained gaming experiences. They understand that MMO companies all make the choice of exactly WHAT gets left out at release, and no one is 100% happy.

b) MMO Veterans who have allowed their years of playing one particular game spoil them, and cause them to forget the buggy, empty, boring opening periods... which weren't quite as boring to them back then, simply because it was their first time going through it. Now these folks expect every game to release at the level of an older, more developed game which they see through rose-colored glasses.

c) People who are not new to MMOs, but rather have only played MMOs AFTER release... so this is their first RELEASE MMO. As a result, they've never had to see the "sausage factory" before, so to speak. They're used to coming in after the work is done, and they mistakenly believe that's how it was from day one.

d) People who are brand new to MMOs, who will eventually be shuffled into one of the three categories above--not based on the game, but based on how the COMMUNITY makes them feel. Think back to your first game, especially those that played pre-Vent or TeamSpeak. It was that in-game guild chat that defined your feelings as a player.

So, let's not waste any further time attempting to reason with Category B or C people, while they focus on trying to poison Category D. Find those Category D people, help them out, and you'll find there are plenty of them to replace any of the B/C people still haunting these halls. Offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism--which means criticize it, but also provide an alternative or potential fix, not just some self-important ultimatum or "prophecy" of doom.

Signed,

Not a ST or Cryptic Fanboy, but an MMO Fanboy.
/signed, as a member of group "A" its a well described post imho.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
02-15-2010, 10:44 AM
I am getting pretty tired of the "if you don't like it then quit" attitude around here. It's irresponsible, short-sighted, and more than a little arrogant. One of the best things you can do for a game is to point out where it needs improvement. Being sanctimonius about the people pointing out the problems is what serves no purpose. The "whiners" don't have any right to make the game how they want, and neither do the "fanbois" - Cryptic is making a product and we're the target market. That makes it prudent to pay attention to what the market is saying.

Quote:
You are comparing STO to restaurant food? Really?
Why not? A provider is offering goods or services to a target demographic. What comparison would you find worthy, pray tell?

Quote:
It is illegal in the US to say how bad the product they are trying to sell, is. Only how 'good' it is.
What?

Quote:
You shouldn't ever beleive what a person is saying about what he is selling.
This is incredibly short-sighted. Yes, people make their product sound good, and that's why customer feedback is what's important. The general position of the OP seems to be: "if you like it then great, if you don't then leave". Maybe the reason that we're still here is that we want the game to become something better than it is. How else can that happen besides pointing out the flaws?

We don't have an obligation to like or dislike STO for any reason - not because it's Star Trek, not because we've waited a long time. If anyone likes it then I'm happy for them. If anyone doesn't then it is only to the benefit of the game to point out why they don't like it. For example, I don't like that it is a shallow, repetitive experience with a bizarre and unintuitive RPG system. Some of that is fixable, in my opinion, and some of it isn't. But if I never bring it up then Cryptic won't know that it's a problem. "Fun" may be subjective, but that doesn't mean a company shouldn't be aware of what, in general, is making the experience less fun than it could be for more people.

So cut the sanctimonius crap. It's hardly unreasonable to expect a released product to be finished (even if it's an MMO - there's a difference between adding to the experience and just having a shoddy framework), and negativity in and of itself is not a bad thing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
02-15-2010, 10:51 AM
Streaker: Thought you were going, mate. Click the back button, or the X in the top right if you can't find your way. You made it clear you don't want to discuss this, and that's what we're doing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedryn View Post
Propose a fix? This isn't a group effort here, were are customers, Cryptic is the provider. If I go to a restaurant and don't like how the food is prepared, I donít go back into the kitchen and offer pointers to the cook. This is a product, we are the consumers. I am under ZERO obligation to provide Cryptic with solutions, and more to the point they are under zero obligation to take player suggestions.
But it's in their best interests to do so, because it keeps you coming back. If you go to a restaurant and you don't see what you want on the menu, no, they don't have to fix it. But if you went to a restaurant, asked, and they DID? You'd be more likely to go back there--one, because they gave you what you wanted, and two, because you know they respond to their customers.

It's not about obligation. It's about securing repeat business, which is the bread and butter of any venture.

Quote:
Do you honestly believe the developers are coming to the forums looking for ideas? You have never worked on a large project before have you? Do you even understand how project management works? Design documentation? They didn't create a base framework and then sit back waiting for players to fill in the gaps for them.
Ideas, not necessarily. But I do think that, while exercising a fair amount of discernment, Developers of many MMOs do look to the forums to see what players are talking about and asking for. Pretty much, they've got a list of ideas they could use, and they're deciding which one's next. Part of that decision is based on what the community is doing--if NO ONE is interested in crafting, you don't mess with a crafting revamp.

If enough people complain about how that expansion should be free, because it doesn't raise the level cap, you take that forum backlash, show it to your producers and say "See? Here's a chance to restore the good faith you lost us."

And since you brought up the subject of restaurants, it's obvious you believe in the power of the consumer. If you don't like the restaurant, you don't go back... and if enough people do that, it closes. Here's the problem -- if all we do as consumers is exercise the power to CLOSE restaurants, we never get any choice in what comes next. We force the market to GUESS what sort of food to serve and just keep going "wrong!" until they nail it...

Cryptic is playing it wise. They release the core game, allowing people to decide "Yes, I like this skill system and ship customization" or "No, I don't like this," and then let the folks that stick around guide them on which content to emphasize next. They're doing their market research, like any good business does AT ALL TIMES.

Do you think McDonalds puts a new item on the menu before trying it out in select states? They don't just have an internal test (Hey, Bob, you like the McShrimp?) and pass out some free samples. They put it out there in the restaurant and let customers provide feedback. Then, if it's good, they go whole hog with it.

MMOs, by nature, can only be tested so much in beta. Eventually, you pare it down to your core product (whatever form you decide that takes, based on your timetable and design vision) and you put it out there in as stable a format as you can. Then it's market research, market research, market research.

Releasing with a ton of content works in some cases... but it also reduces your flexibility in dealing with customer desires. You've got to be fixing bugs with systems X, Y, and Z, there's no time for creating or revamping System Q. Forget the fact that most players never even use system Y. It's in there, so it has to work right.

Quote:
It's simple, I as a consumer expect certain things from a product based primarily on how it was marketed, and what I was told I was being sold. If that product does not meet my expectations I, as the consumer, will be sure to inform the provider of that fact.
And that's what you should do. It is, however, more beneficial to explain WHY you don't like it. And even MORE beneficial to provide a suggestion. A suggestion could be "Hey, make exploration sectors bigger." It doesn't have to be a design document. It could be "I don't feel like there is enough of a variety of items." That's a suggestion, though incomplete--more item variety.

It's more productive than "This game blows, TOR will rock, everyone should quit now!" or even "This game is unfinished." How is it unfinished? WHY is this steak not cooked right--too much, too little, smaller than advertised, wrong cut? You may not want to tell him how to fix it, but at least complete the thought as to what's wrong.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
02-15-2010, 10:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerresand View Post
I am getting pretty tired of the "if you don't like it then quit" attitude around here. It's irresponsible, short-sighted, and more than a little arrogant. One of the best things you can do for a game is to point out where it needs improvement. Being sanctimonius about the people pointing out the problems is what serves no purpose. The "whiners" don't have any right to make the game how they want, and neither do the "fanbois" - Cryptic is making a product and we're the target market. That makes it prudent to pay attention to what the market is saying.



Why not? A provider is offering goods or services to a target demographic. What comparison would you find worthy, pray tell?



What?



This is incredibly short-sighted. Yes, people make their product sound good, and that's why customer feedback is what's important. The general position of the OP seems to be: "if you like it then great, if you don't then leave". Maybe the reason that we're still here is that we want the game to become something better than it is. How else can that happen besides pointing out the flaws?

We don't have an obligation to like or dislike STO for any reason - not because it's Star Trek, not because we've waited a long time. If anyone likes it then I'm happy for them. If anyone doesn't then it is only to the benefit of the game to point out why they don't like it. For example, I don't like that it is a shallow, repetitive experience with a bizarre and unintuitive RPG system. Some of that is fixable, in my opinion, and some of it isn't. But if I never bring it up then Cryptic won't know that it's a problem. "Fun" may be subjective, but that doesn't mean a company shouldn't be aware of what, in general, is making the experience less fun than it could be for more people.

So cut the sanctimonius crap. It's hardly unreasonable to expect a released product to be finished (even if it's an MMO - there's a difference between adding to the experience and just having a shoddy framework), and negativity in and of itself is not a bad thing.
1) If you think that STO and Ponderosa food are similar, why not STO and GT Snowracers from the late 70's. On the commercial you see kids turning with them and whatnot. But on the hill, as soon as you turned the wheel, you would be falling right on your head. We all laughed. I guess if we started giving skewed comparisons as fact, we should all be laughing now.


2) If you have shareholders who invest in your company, as a spokesman, you can't go around saying how bad your product is. There is a legal term for it in the US. Not being americain, I don't know what it is or really care.

3) You are the one getting mad.

I have heard your exact words ever and over again over a dozen MMO's. I don't understand how 100's of people, from completely different lives and different parts of the world, all expect an MMO to be perfect yet all aren't.

I am pretty sure Cryptic knows of the problems. In Beta, they knew of some. When it went live, they got walloped with more. They are trying to fix it.

If you think that they are going to collect thier money and run, that is up to you.
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