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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
This post is more a general response to this thread and others like it: Stop comparing this game to World of ********.

Anyone suggesting that modern or new MMOs need to "compete" with WoW is smoking crack. STO was developed over a two year period. WoW hase been developed over almost a nine year period, including three years of actual development and five-and-a-half years of "live" development. To expect any MMO to come out and be able to have the kind of content WoW does is an unrealistic expectation.

WoW was successful because 1) It had an already established, loyal game-based fanbase that was known for fanboy lunacy, and 2) because they had time and money to develop a truly innovative MMO game. Back in pre-recession days, WoW designers could delay and work on the game prior to launch because the company was still getting money from the previous ******** cash cows (three previous games, including expansions). Most MMOs made today do not have that luxury. You have a two year development window, and then the game goes live. That's it. While live, the game is enhanced using money from subs and micro-transactions. Gamers may complain about this, screaming they are getting a "sub-standard game," but these people are nothing more than whiny children who do not understand the realities of making games today.

I beta tested WoW and played it right when it came out. It had server issues a plenty. Things were taken down and fixed all the time. Whole classes were crap, and bugs, bugs, bugs up the wha-zoo. Thinking back on that disaster of a launch, STO's has been a breeze. And to any "marketing analyst" who say that shaky launches will kill a game, I point them to WoW. If they say the gaming environment has changed since 2004, making it unforgivable for having a rough launch because players will simply "go back to WoW," then fine. Let them.

Again, no game can compete with WoW in regards to content. So, why try?

STO was developed and built in two years because that is all the time and budget Cryptic had. Considering that, this game is absolutely masterful. If those kind of details do not concern you, then fine. Cancel your account and go back to playing WoW. It has nine years worth of development time and loads of content. the only other games that can compete with that are City of Heroes and Star Wars Galaxies, and both of those games have inferior engines to WoW.

People who expect gaming companies to produce a "WoW game" right out of the box have unrealistic expectations. Considering this game was started from scratch literally 24 months ago and has all the content it does have currently, that's impressive. It has two combat systems (ship and master-pet combat), a wide array of customization tools, and a great IP with a very expansive universe. This game is only going to get better.

And, agian, to those saying this game "needed more time," the realities of the economy simply did not agree with your own, personal timetable for game development. Companies do not have the time and money to develop games over a three or four year period, like Blizzard did way back when. You are smoking crack if you expect that kind of langthy development from non-Blizzard companies. This is a business. They want to make money. This is why they release MMOs like STO in their current state, improve them while they are "live," and make money in the process.

STO is a very fine game considering the time and resources the dev team had to work with. It also has had a MUCH smoother launch than WoW did, and the people complaining about Cryptic not answering tickets and, at the same time, praising Blizzard and laughable hypocrites. Blizzard pretty much is the gold standard for ignoring their fanbase while, at the same time, laughing all the way to the bank.

I understand that the world today is very different from the world of 2004. I like STO and I look forward to the improvements over time. If you aren't, please cancel your account and go back to playing WoW. More content over there because of a nine year development process which no current MMO company can compete with, and less server lag over here for the rest of us.

I guess the overall theme of this small rant is that no MMO customer should ever think that a new game is going to replace WoW, nor should any marketing analyst. The audience for STO is the MMO audience looking for something new to distract them from other, more established games that have gotten stale. Over time, games like STO build up a core following while expansions and "free weekend" giveaways rope in more new subscriptions. Money from micro-transactions and subs fuel development for new expansions, creating more content, money, and... I think you see the cycle here.

Again, if analysts want to give gaming companies $20 million in free development money, I'm sure several very intelligent, skilled people will develop a new, innovative game that blows WoW out of the water. Since that is not realistic, the talented people at Cryptic used two years of their lives to build STO. Considering all that, the game is great.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
02-16-2010, 11:20 AM
$20 million? It is estimated that a company would need $1 billion in investment money to beat out WoW.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
02-16-2010, 11:24 AM
OP, did you bother reading my thread that you linked to in order to see in what manner i was referencing WoW, or like goodwind and all the other tards on these forums did you just see the word WoW and go on some rampage of hate based on what you assume the other 1200 words surrounding the word WoW must have said?

If you had taken the time to read my thread you would see that you are arguing aganist statements that I never made nor do I support. You're arguing with an imaginary concept that you wish to argue against instead of one that was actually stated.

please read my thread before posting a big long hate speech that misses the mark so far it's humerous. in fact we agree on a lot of points, which you might have known had you read past one sentence.

....but I guess that wouldn't be as easy as arguing against an imaginary point that you can construct to be full of holes for you to argue aganst.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
02-16-2010, 11:33 AM
Who are you talking to?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
02-16-2010, 11:47 AM
Hunter and paladin on vanilla release anyone? Sums up the whole of wow for me... got both to 60 before they were fixed
Good times, but rehashed and boring now, STO is a nice change regardless.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
02-16-2010, 11:48 AM
OP, i can't for the life of me understand why you would WANT people to stop comparing this or ANY MMO to WoW.... comparing by design is how competition is born....

The reality is that, comparing STO to WoW is more like an unrealized dream for the people making the comparison typically.... "I WANT this to be as content full as WoW...".... "I WANT there to be Endgame Content as much as there is in WoW..."

That alone is the passion that drives people TO this game......when they STOP making the comparisons is the day the game will most likely fail
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
02-16-2010, 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vardonis View Post
OP, i can't for the life of me understand why you would WANT people to stop comparing this or ANY MMO to WoW.... comparing by design is how competition is born....

The reality is that, comparing STO to WoW is more like an unrealized dream for the people making the comparison typically.... "I WANT this to be as content full as WoW...".... "I WANT there to be Endgame Content as much as there is in WoW..."

That alone is the passion that drives people TO this game......when they STOP making the comparisons is the day the game will most likely fail
That goes without saying. Everyone wants the game, at some point, to have content as rich and diverse as WoW and other content rich games. Expecting it out-of-the-box, after only two years of dev time, that is where the expectation becomes ridiculous.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
02-16-2010, 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDrago View Post
That goes without saying. Everyone wants the game, at some point, to have content as rich and diverse as WoW and other content rich games. Expecting it out-of-the-box, after only two years of dev time, that is where the expectation becomes ridiculous.
dude, you missed the boat again!

If you are going to write a commentary on my thread read my thread first then write your commentary.

again, this is in no way related to anything I said, nor are you arguing against my post that you linked to. you are arguing against this imaginary point that you made up to attribute to me.

I do believe the content is lacking but my entire post was not refering to this in the least. the post, to sum it up, is that you can't set out a marketing plan of "what game could we have made 5 years ago that would have given WoW a run for your money in the up and comming MMO explosion." while pretending that the market is ripe for the taking. There isn't some huge untapped market of people who haven't ever heard of an MMO but would be willing to play one, that ship sailed.
Instead of always thinking in terms of making a "wow-killer" they need to market a game for MMO players that isn't trying to directly out WoW blizzard cause it won't happen.

Having content doesn't matter if you put that content in a badly delivered game and try to use the excuse that other games have been around for years. either find a niche that doesn't place your whole marketing scheme in a slapped together reskined wow clone with poor features, weak gameplay and shoddy delivery or don't bother making an MMO in the first place.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
02-16-2010, 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDrago View Post
That goes without saying. Everyone wants the game, at some point, to have content as rich and diverse as WoW and other content rich games. Expecting it out-of-the-box, after only two years of dev time, that is where the expectation becomes ridiculous.
You DO realise that by and large, the main gameplay in wow (ignoring server issues, bug fixes and expansions) has gone unchanged since WoW's release dont you? When I refer to "gameplay" I'm not talking about content. I'm talking about the richness that a player enjoys from the very beginning in WoW and certaIn other MMO's.

Oh and by the way, even back in the WoW launch era, MMO devs couldn't just "push back" an MMO whenever they felt like it. Please don't make such rubbish up.

WoW was unique because it set the bar in terms of quality of gameplay. It wasn't "innovative" but what it did, it did well to outshine even the most well established of competition (EQ1 and 2). Sorry but to imply "why bother" is just being defeatist when you're in a business and youre in it to make money. And you can only do that IF you strive for quality. I'm not talking about putting Night Elves in space either.
By setting that bar, all others who came after WoW have to meet the level of expectations it set or they feel the consequences. Its that simple.

People like to argue that its not comparing apples with apples when people compare an MMO to wow. But in actual fact they miss the point that the quest system, the world size (excluding expansions), the content for the levels, the user friendly UI system (which explains all that the players need to know rather than making them guess at everything), variety of classes, were ALL there at the very start of WoWs launch. Notice I didn't mention server stability, bug fixes, etc, because those are separate issues.

The sheer amount of content what WoW has today isn't the issue. No one actually compares the AMOUNT of content wow has now. The amount of content in STO has when compared to WoW's release IS under question. But not only that, its also HOW the content wow had (at launch) was presented to the playerbase compared to how its presented to the players in STO that matters.

Make no mistake, although there were players in WoW that blew through content quicker than others, it still often took them longer than 2 weeks which is the average length of time Cryptic are expecting peopel to blow through the content in STO.

To sum it up, a friend of mine once said:

"Wow may not have DEPTH, but it has WIDTH" meaning that the variety it does provide to some degree overshadows the lack of depth in certain areas. STO has neither width, nor depth.

Now kudos to them for making an MMO in 2 years. But they can't just lie back and wait for the money to roll in. Because that short time in development shows through in everything in the game. And please dont say "its only been out for 2 weeks" because neither you nor I have had any assurances that the game is about to be given any more depth than it has now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
02-16-2010, 01:05 PM
I dont know what you do OP, but when I want to buy something I look around for some competing products. And will not compare this new Toyota to some 5 years old Mondeo just because it is fair. I will compare it to the new, upgraded, developed Mondeo.
Because if new Toyota is sucky, I will not buy it even if that 5 years old Mondeo was ****** too.
It is that easy, it is called competition and progress. In all other business then MMo, customers will compare products right now and will choose the better.
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