Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
02-17-2010, 06:18 AM
Improving ship replicator by letting players to get blue prints for it and then use all those samples etc to create new and better items would be nice.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
02-17-2010, 06:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodwind
Yes it is. You trade X for Y. Sometimes X is ore. Sometimes Y is a bolt. You do this a few times with Xs and Ys untill you get the Y you want. Few systems are more than that.

SWG was a bit more involved and probably the closest to true crafing that you can get. But WoW? Seriously. It is STO crafting with a few more steps (turning in Xs for Ys) than STO has.

In WoW and other MMOs that have real crafting, you can take crafting anywhere with you because it becomes a personal skill once you train in it. In most cases, the only time you have to see an NPC for crafting was to learn new recipes.

Yes, because WoW didn't require certian looms, moon wells, forges or anvils for crafting. Nope. Not at all.
Goodwind try to keep up,

Crafting in a game requires some planning and variety. WoW has tailoring, mining, potion making, alchemy, weapon and armor making, vehicle making, scroll making, etc. With me so far or am I going too fast for ya?

Good. Beyond the multiple crafting types, we have a variety of options on how to get these resources. Some are mined in unique areas, each type have unique graphics, there are tools one can make to increase resource gathering, different player abilities or items can increase crafting skills, players have to sometimes struggle to get rare resources, certain mobs may drop resources you want giving you multiple ways to target a resource you need, etc.

Next WoW uses immersion to have different types and levels of resources in different zones, attempting to scale the crafting progression with gameplay progression. In fact one thing that is done is to have multiple crafting locations throughout the game, meaning players are not relegated to having to always travel back to the same one location to craft.

Next WoW has crafting items that are less about pure combat and more about fun, humor and lore. The concept is that crafting can be it's own reward outside of gameplay min/maxing.

Now that you've had a well thought out MMORPG crafting system explained to you, perhaps you can see why STO has nothing even remotely similar in design or implementation.

Thanks for listening, hope you think before you post next time

~ Foulwin
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
02-17-2010, 07:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissky View Post
I don't think it was a well thought out system
QFE and becasue they used the same line of thinking on the entire game
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
02-17-2010, 07:12 AM
I find it pretty funny that Cryptic's superhero game has a better crafting system than Cryptic's Sci-Fi game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
02-17-2010, 07:19 AM
I agree with Goodwin. This is a "crafting" system. It is by no means as in depth as most. I like the general idea though. Having a progression for each "class". I think given time they could develop it into a more interesting system. Perhaps there could be random drops that you can take to Memory Alpha and it would unlock more "recipes".

Two of the problems that I see are: #1 - there are not enough things to "craft" at each rank, which causes #2 - too many ranks at each tier. Of course, that's not even mentioning the main issue = there is not a measurable progression. As long as people have to guess what kind of progress they are making, it won't be looked at as a real system.

It would be nice to see a system that progressed as you do. No making Commander level gear until you are a Commander. (My Science officer maxed his T2 crafting at level 13.) They also need some kind of distinction between "crafters". As long as it's not trackable and everyone can upgrade to the exact same items as everyone else, it's not a good system.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
02-17-2010, 07:20 AM
I think Memory Alpha should be turned over to a place for upgrade *components* ... so your samples become a part of a larger group of components you need to create say an upgraded console...

You get samples, you get salvaged components from derelict ships err whatever, you get random bonus components...

Maybe I need an example...it's early and I am stupid...:

So lets say you have:

1.) a Mk V Phaser Dual cannon @ 190 DPS with no bonuses (I'm at work so I have no real numbers)

2.) 4 X Photonic Samples, 2 X Unknown Schematics, 3 Mineral Samples (yadda yadda yadda)

3.) A new thing you found in a mission to investigate a derelict / abandon ship gives you a modifier type (critical / accuracy / severity etc) call it whatever you want... Tuning device, dilithium crystal...I don't care...

4.) At Memory Alpha you have a Lab machine, it works like a bank, as in you just open it, and put in your samples, original unmodified weapon, bonus components, and whatever else comprises the "recipe" for the part you want, and you combine them... So put them in, start the process....

maybe it happens immediately, maybe you have to wait a while...but all the original components are gone next time you open it, and you have one new combined Cannon...

5.) You lose DPS points, and perhaps increase power drain (whatever I'm just getting the idea out, but you lose *something* from the original stats) but gain criticals..or whatever stat(s) you had available to modify...

...so in the end say you have a new Cannon, with .01 accuracy..but now it's 188 DPS instead of 190 DPS... (just an example...there should be a trade-off)

That is how I think Memory Alpha should work... It should be a lab...where *you* process ship and personal components...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
02-17-2010, 07:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foulwin View Post
Goodwind try to keep up,
Starting with an ad hominem is generally an indication that what follows will not be as substantive as one thinks.
Quote:
Crafting in a game requires some planning and variety. WoW has tailoring, mining, potion making, alchemy, weapon and armor making, vehicle making, scroll making, etc. With me so far or am I going too fast for ya?
You made a declarative statement that “crafting in game requires planning and variety” and then didn’t support it one iota. It’s not that you’re going to fast; it’s that you failed to actually support the statement.

And the basic premise that you can’t have crafting unless you have multiple crafting professions is flawed at the start. A game can have crafting even if there is but a single crafting profession.
Quote:
Good. Beyond the multiple crafting types, we have a variety of options on how to get these resources. Some are mined in unique areas, each type have unique graphics, there are tools one can make to increase resource gathering, different player abilities or items can increase crafting skills, players have to sometimes struggle to get rare resources, certain mobs may drop resources you want giving you multiple ways to target a resource you need, etc.
Gathering resources is gathering resources. You can call in a gold mine and iron mine or simply a technological anomaly. They’re the same thing with different names.

Even STO require mob drops in its crafting system.
Quote:
Next WoW uses immersion to have different types and levels of resources in different zones, attempting to scale the crafting progression with gameplay progression. In fact one thing that is done is to have multiple crafting locations throughout the game, meaning players are not relegated to having to always travel back to the same one location to craft.
Immersion does not make or break a crafting system nor is having limited areas to craft make it not crafting. Crafting dark iron had to be done at a specific location, in a dungeon, and it didn’t make it less craft-like.
Quote:
Next WoW has crafting items that are less about pure combat and more about fun, humor and lore. The concept is that crafting can be it's own reward outside of gameplay min/maxing.
Again, not a requirement for a crafting system.
Quote:
Now that you've had a well thought out MMORPG crafting system explained to you, perhaps you can see why STO has nothing even remotely similar in design or implementation.
Nope. They are similar in concept, both asking you to turn in Xs for Ys. One just uses fancier names to do it and calls it “smiting” or “tailoring”. You simply gather enough Xs to get your Ys.

If you wanted to talk about a well thought out MMORPG crafting system you would have look at something like SWG uses. A system where ore is not just like every bit of ore, but where each spawn can have different unique properties. A system where each item crafted can have different and unique stats from another the player made and from what any other player can make.

WoW’s crafting is simplistic, offers no variety in items produced (one man’s copper chest plate is the same as any other smith’s) and is simply STO like in gathering Xs and turning them in for Ys. They uses different names for Xs and Ys but the system boils down to the same basic concept.
Quote:
Thanks for listening, hope you think before you post next time
And ending with an ad hominem guarantees the presiding had little value.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
02-17-2010, 07:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foulwin View Post
It wasn't thought out. It's not even a true crafting system. It was put in just so Cryptic could claim STO had crafting. It's a PR choice not a game design one. Thus the lack of depth, confusing interface, lack of progress bar, poor rewards and no relation to Star Trek lore or gameplay.

~ Foulwin
http://forums.champions-online.com/s...25#post1472825 said something similar a few days ago on CO's forum.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
02-17-2010, 07:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lethalblade View Post
Exactly. Why does everyone keep calling this crafting? It's an item trade-in system, not crafting.
Agree, this is a basterdized collection mechanic not crafting. You collect various number of things and trade them for a prize. Collection mini game, not crafting.

There are a great many players who do not like crafting or collecting at all. Thats fine for them, go level. Some players deeply enjoy the crafting / trade systems in games. For those people this games system is for lack of a better word abysmal.

For me, I believe that crafting should be complex, interesting, well documented, time consuming and rewarding. See games like SWG, EvE, Fallen Earth, PotBS.


For your reading pleasure;

http://tobolds.blogspot.com/2007/09/...g-systems.html

http://www.moorgard.com/?p=65

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-t...ad.php?t=44939
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
02-17-2010, 11:47 AM
SWG has something similar to what someGit described. A Cube that you throw combined loot items into to spit out new items essentially. That one doesn't have the inclusion of adding in an item to modify but it is essentially the same kind of mechanic.

I'd kind of like to see something like that added to it as well as a kind of "Advanced" option when expanding on the system to allow for player experimentation to create unique items.
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