Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,431
# 11
08-29-2014, 03:31 AM
Not to force anyone to break there RP mode. However... new people complaining about PvP... hasn't been about Klingon faction stuffs in 4 years. FvF killed all that long ago. The people in Kerrat don't even realize they are PvPing do you think they find there ways to the forums to complain.

95% of all QQ comes from The arena or C&H Que.. which until recently had been 95% FvF since the inception of FvF.

The mechanics are the mechanics... doesn't matter whom is shooting at whom. In most cases PvPers with even a small amount of XP under there belt are building toward proper PvP builds.

What has happened over the last 4 years is the gaps between people that know what they are doing and new people have gotten wider and wider. They have gotten harder to cross thanks to Cryptic power creeping the heck out of things and as Mancom has pointed out... making it very expensive to play the meta game.

Things against new players even holding there own are as follows;

1) Knowing which ship to fly... because any ship works in PvE land... in PvP land there are Best choice and ok choice ships. 80% of the rest of the options are bad.

2) Weapon selection. Even people that do really well in PvE are not prepared for 100+ defense. Weapons that own borg will NOT own a zooming escort or a healer with 80k hull and HPS 10x higher then the average PvE players DPS.

3) Gear Selection. Again anything works in PvE land. In PvP land PvP players know which sets to run, which fleet cores are good opitons. in which builds and often the costs of them is high enough when a new player is given solid advice they are often days or weeks from switching to the advised gear.

4) Boff selection. We laugh often at people with no tac team or only one... or no EPTS. Seriously though you don't need them for PvE. So why would a new player assume they needed them for PvP.

5) Doff selection. Much like boff selection there are things that are just not needed in PvE that are very good options for PvP. Why would some one only doing PvE ever buy a Beam overload Pen doff ? Even something like the Antimatter a2d doff isn't required for any pve missions. (on that note there is no need for A2D at all in pve)

6) Reputation choices. I say choices because most PvE people do have there rep completed. However much like the doffs... who needs 5% more shield pen in PvE ? PvE players often have setups that we would think stupid frankly. However they likely get 1k DPS extra in Infected with the ones they chose. lol

7) Buff watching. No one that has played STO PvE for 4 years is even remotely ready to watch an opponents buff bar. Even experienced PvP players have a hard time watching a targets buffs. Keeping track of a teams buffs ? Only the best among us can claim to be able to track more then a few players at once. Even then they know which buffs are important to watch. New players are used to seeing ZERO buffs on there NPC targets... or at most one which they often don't care about anyway.

8) Situational awareness again new players simply don't have this yet. (it comes with XP... not having it at first just adds to the confusion)

9) Cryptics mechanics... the WTF factor. There are MULTIPLE things that can one shot kill you in STO. Most of them are random procs... or small strings of them. This game is bad for that. Even long time players are constantly rolling back there log to see what got them. New players are getting hit with things they have never even heard of. So the WTF factor is high.

10) Counters.... This one is simple. NPCS in STO don't buff up much. When they do buff they have unique buffs most of the time that don't translate to STO pvp. Ask any one that has played PVE only since beta what counters a Sub nuke. Most won't know. Never mind VMs Scrambles Gravity wells TBRs TDF WarpP Tractors + all the gear set and uni consoles that they have never had fired on them (or rarely anyway)... You can't counter things at the right times if you don't even know how.


There those are my TOP 10 reasons. Why new players get super frustrated almost instantly with PvP when they try it out. It has nothing to do with Role Playing folks in Antiquated Birds of Prey.
Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.

Last edited by antoniosalieri; 08-29-2014 at 03:40 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,376
# 12
08-29-2014, 04:20 AM
And all of the issues are due to PvE being an easy DPS race - Just giving them all the stuff an equivalent player ship has, and most importantly using PvPer keybinds to set up ability usage, would go a very long way to solving the issues surrounding terribad players.


Right now, an NPC ship is lucky to have 5 abilities and 2 fore, 2 aft weapons in total! The only advantage they have is masses of hit points, and hit points aren't all that great. Essential to have yeah, but once they are gone they are gone, and nearly all NPCs don't have any way to heal themselves.


A few examples that highlight the issue:

Take a JHAS - in PvP, it is pretty much top dog of escorts. It has challengers yes, but it is still definitely brilliant. An NPC JHAS however, barely is any better than a player's T1 ship.

Take KDF BoPs - in PvP, a well built and flown BoP will be able to withstand 4+ average Feds at Ker'rat. An NPC BoP is usually down before you even knew it was there.

Take an NPC Fed Cruiser - waste of time, even the turrets fore, mines aft, beam Tac skill using lol-boats out DPS NPC Fed Cruisers. In our hands it is an entirely different story.

Take a Scimitar - in our hands, it is OP. NPC Scims are so weak that said lol-boats ^ are better.



If PvE is rebalanced to be fair to these poor NPCs, we could have normal average players actually having meaningful mechanics knowledge. Once the rage stops.
VPvP. T5U PvP. Normal PvP. Because some of us still do it... Oh, and PvE advice too.
A pilot able to fly straight is the single most important factor in any build's performance.

T'Rebek, Nalcari, Karina, Volana, Kilaitia, K'Ahlayr, Ririatss.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,286
# 13
08-29-2014, 04:29 AM
as long as your character is well developed, pvp is at about its most balanced ever. just about every single ship can be made to work there well enough to not be a determent to the team, with the right build and strategy. very often that being an AtB build.


sure there's plenty of bad eggs. way to many clicky consoles ether 1 shoting you or rendering you invincible or letting you escape. up to 4 abilities in each tac, eng and sci that are WORTHLESS, if they removed them one day no one would notice. sci ship creep is easily twice that of escort and cruiser creep, because science in pve sucks so they keep super boosting sci ships releases as if that does anything to help the problem. the only way to make sci ships worth a crap in pve is npcs that buff and heal exactly like player ships.

anyway, the snoopers and the particle stackers are basically exploiting, they have no counters and add grave imbalance were every they propagate. there's no counter other then throwing even more sci back at them. its never been more true that the more sci you have, the more likely your team is to wining. yet people still almost exclusivly complain about things relating to tactical, AtB especially. the fart cloud of pve logic is thicker then ever.

season 8 pvp was the best hands down, its about like now only without the zindi escort and particles weren't out of control yet. its now less then it was, and the expansion looks to double down on all the extremes that are the problem in pvp these days.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,431
# 14
08-29-2014, 04:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
anyway, the snoopers and the particle stackers are basically exploiting, they have no counters and add grave imbalance were every they propagate. there's no counter other then throwing even more sci back at them.
This isn't really true. They simply play to the weaknesses of most peoples builds. Neither are cheating in anyway. The snooping... yes there is a stupid fed console that lets them see way more for to long... still the buff is easy to notice... and if you simply have to have a plan to be able to decloak and survive for 30s. If you can't do that you have a terrible build for that meta... and you have been hard countered in your week defense vape build.

As for the pgen hax... there is NOTHING a sci with high crit dmg sci skills can throw at you that you can't 100% hard counter 100% of the time. The only time you won't be able to counter it is when you get nuked. Team work in such a case is the way to go. (is that not the way its always been though.... carry a sci team for pugging and communicate when your teamed) The only people that would have a hard time countering things like FBP / TBR / GW would be well.... ya A2B boats. FAWing witih FBP around is a bad idea.... A2Bing instead of A2Ding with TBR around is also a bad idea.

I know you will say 80% of the ships require in your opinion A2B to be viable. Well that is case in point why I stated IMO 80% of the ship choices you can make are plain bad for pvp. Having said that Any ship that can run A2B x 2... can also run A2B + A2D... and be 100% immune to TBR and GW... and if you run the right doffs have 3-7 Consoles of Hull resist up while only using 1-2 actual armour consoles. Sure your skills may be 85% of global instead of at global... but this is PvP where building for not PvE Dps races. 85% is very viable... and having 100% uptime on a2d and an overlap period where your resists are super boosted isn't so bad.
Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,403
# 15
08-29-2014, 05:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenacius2200 View Post
Plz explain
  • Lack of a 1v1 queue.
  • Too high speed of space combat when driven over the top (which PvPers will naturally do, and you can't blame them for it)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,485
# 16
08-29-2014, 05:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
Not to force anyone to break there RP mode. However... new people complaining about PvP... hasn't been about Klingon faction stuffs in 4 years. FvF killed all that long ago. The people in Kerrat don't even realize they are PvPing do you think they find there ways to the forums to complain.

95% of all QQ comes from The arena or C&H Que.. which until recently had been 95% FvF since the inception of FvF.

The mechanics are the mechanics... doesn't matter whom is shooting at whom. In most cases PvPers with even a small amount of XP under there belt are building toward proper PvP builds.

What has happened over the last 4 years is the gaps between people that know what they are doing and new people have gotten wider and wider. They have gotten harder to cross thanks to Cryptic power creeping the heck out of things and as Mancom has pointed out... making it very expensive to play the meta game.

Things against new players even holding there own are as follows;

1) Knowing which ship to fly... because any ship works in PvE land... in PvP land there are Best choice and ok choice ships. 80% of the rest of the options are bad.

2) Weapon selection. Even people that do really well in PvE are not prepared for 100+ defense. Weapons that own borg will NOT own a zooming escort or a healer with 80k hull and HPS 10x higher then the average PvE players DPS.

3) Gear Selection. Again anything works in PvE land. In PvP land PvP players know which sets to run, which fleet cores are good opitons. in which builds and often the costs of them is high enough when a new player is given solid advice they are often days or weeks from switching to the advised gear.

4) Boff selection. We laugh often at people with no tac team or only one... or no EPTS. Seriously though you don't need them for PvE. So why would a new player assume they needed them for PvP.

5) Doff selection. Much like boff selection there are things that are just not needed in PvE that are very good options for PvP. Why would some one only doing PvE ever buy a Beam overload Pen doff ? Even something like the Antimatter a2d doff isn't required for any pve missions. (on that note there is no need for A2D at all in pve)

6) Reputation choices. I say choices because most PvE people do have there rep completed. However much like the doffs... who needs 5% more shield pen in PvE ? PvE players often have setups that we would think stupid frankly. However they likely get 1k DPS extra in Infected with the ones they chose. lol

7) Buff watching. No one that has played STO PvE for 4 years is even remotely ready to watch an opponents buff bar. Even experienced PvP players have a hard time watching a targets buffs. Keeping track of a teams buffs ? Only the best among us can claim to be able to track more then a few players at once. Even then they know which buffs are important to watch. New players are used to seeing ZERO buffs on there NPC targets... or at most one which they often don't care about anyway.

8) Situational awareness again new players simply don't have this yet. (it comes with XP... not having it at first just adds to the confusion)

9) Cryptics mechanics... the WTF factor. There are MULTIPLE things that can one shot kill you in STO. Most of them are random procs... or small strings of them. This game is bad for that. Even long time players are constantly rolling back there log to see what got them. New players are getting hit with things they have never even heard of. So the WTF factor is high.

10) Counters.... This one is simple. NPCS in STO don't buff up much. When they do buff they have unique buffs most of the time that don't translate to STO pvp. Ask any one that has played PVE only since beta what counters a Sub nuke. Most won't know. Never mind VMs Scrambles Gravity wells TBRs TDF WarpP Tractors + all the gear set and uni consoles that they have never had fired on them (or rarely anyway)... You can't counter things at the right times if you don't even know how.


There those are my TOP 10 reasons. Why new players get super frustrated almost instantly with PvP when they try it out. It has nothing to do with Role Playing folks in Antiquated Birds of Prey.
only to have add it (stacks with no.9 i guess ):
11) building skilltree.... not enough knowledge from pve/levelling processes in whole regarding ingame-mechanics and skill/ability/gear/passives synergies.

Klink: House of Beautiful - J'Luc/Rom: Lag Industries - D'Waste/Fed-Sci: Lag Industries - IAM
Join Date Hoster: Dec 2011 - Join Date Symbiont: 1403 A.D. and not a dull moment
PvP improvements, since 2010 lol
/50+ Fleet-, Lobi- and Lockboxships=unreclaimable trash

Last edited by wast33; 08-29-2014 at 05:17 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 641
# 17
08-29-2014, 05:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
  • Lack of a 1v1 queue.
  • Too high speed of space combat when driven over the top (which PvPers will naturally do, and you can't blame them for it)
He gets it. Someone give this man a medal.

Yeah, too many players going from zero to 180,900 miles per hour. Remove Attack pattern omega from the game and make emergency power to engines duration 6 seconds. I'ts like the game supports cowards or something.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,431
# 18
08-29-2014, 05:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wast33 View Post
only to have add it (stacks with no.9 i guess ):
11) building skilltree.... not enough knowledge from pve/levelling processes in whole regarding ingame-mechanics and skill/ability/gear/passives synergies.
Good point I should have had that in my top ten some where. I also didn't mention personal traits. I should have tacked that on to my rep traits points. Same things with personal traits, people often really don't understand what they should have slotted for pvp.

It is very possibly to happily play PvE and do extremely well and never realize the game even has a shield resistance mechanic or a defense mechanic. The hull resist I think most long time PvE people get because of skills like beta. Do they understand shield resistance though... or regen... or hull repair. Do they know how to spec to resist drains... or scrambles... or disables... or holds. I mean if all i ever did was pve would I honestly spec points in sub repair or damp or heck even sensors. Not likely.

I guess with new ship traits coming its going to get even more complicated... best hope there is that there isn't so many traits that are terrible in PvP but great in PvE. (of course after a few more lockboxes that will end up being the case)
Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,431
# 19
08-29-2014, 05:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by atlantra View Post
He gets it. Someone give this man a medal.

Yeah, too many players going from zero to 180,900 miles per hour. Remove Attack pattern omega from the game and make emergency power to engines duration 6 seconds. I'ts like the game supports cowards or something.
I half agree with you... there is to much of everything in the game. Reduce ALL Eptx effects to 6s. Add a DR formula to shield resists to while there at it.... Its like the game supports turtles or something. lol
Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 15,596
# 20
08-29-2014, 05:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
The people in Kerrat don't even realize they are PvPing do you think they find there ways to the forums to complain.
I'm sorry I didn't read past that, but...

IT WAS FREAKING EPIC WIN!!!!!!!

Lol, I spit soda out all over the place. I need to clean it up, but I just needed to say that was awesome.


Willard the Rat & Crew

This isn't your father's Starfleet...welcome to Star Trek Online.
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