Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 261
02-18-2010, 03:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walshicus
"I cannot defeat this Klingon. All I can do is kill him and that no longer holds my interest."
Yes, but if his superior had said "very well, then kill him." that Jem'Hadar would not have hesitated.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 262
02-18-2010, 03:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
An interesting word to choose: "inherently".

Jem'Hadar are inherently weapons. They might grow up and choose to kill nothing, but they're inherently weapons. Ask any Founder. You say they're inherently sentient so should be allowed to live while others can say they're inherently weapons and should be stopped when they can be.

I'd also argue that them being sentient is irrelevant. Not to dive too deeply into the philosophical, it basically means to be aware of oneself. Does being aware of oneself change their nature or denote that they can choose their own fate? No.. it doesn't. It simply means the can acknowledge their own existence.
Yup, they are sentient.
And they are weapons. Sure, I'll concede this as I feel it's irrelevant.

Let's ignore for a moment anything they might accomplish as a species as time moves forward.

Let me offer theoretical Human Culture Alpha: A caste based society.
You've been at war with them, and they are gnarly. Currently, things are peaceful, although rogue elements certainly remain. For the most part, none of their warrior caste are actively fighting. They are training for war, practicing the art of killing and honestly, weren't raised with anything else on their mind; that's all they know, all they care about.

You find yourself dispatching some rogue elements when you come across a room with a single old woman clutching some newborns in the corner. They bear the mark of the warrior caste and as such will grow up one day to fight... and nothing else. They might one day kill someone you care about... if they find themselves at war, you can be certain they will not show you or anyone else any mercy. But right now, they are innocent.

What do you do?
What would Kirk, Picard, Sisko or Janeway do?

Obviously, this is the Jem'Hadar with a twist... because it's human babies (can't use eggs... we're mammals). Thing is, as you said, the Jem'Hadar are sentient, so I feel no problems interchanging the Jem'Hadar for humans. Now, the Jem'Hadar are genetically engineered for war, so in good faith the theoretical culture was made to be a caste based system with heavy indoctrination from birth to make things more "fair"...

...but my hope is that it will permit some to see that perhaps it's not quite the grey area you once thought.
Those Jem'Hadar babies are alive and sentient~ish... (lets not go back to the abortion argument please)
They are bred for war, are only really interested in killing. But for the moment, they are innocent. It is not until they pick up a weapon and aim it at you do they become the enemy.

To preempt the future you presume is the same as killing the children of a warrior caste society on Earth.
That 'aint cool man. So not cool.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 263
02-18-2010, 03:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
Murder? Thats a POV. Killing? Thats a fact of science. So yes, it definitely is killing to end the life of something that is alive. However, whether or not you feel that is justified is what determines whether it is "murder" or not.
The argument is not whether it's murder or not, the argument (as it has always been with that particular kind of subject) is when exactly is starts being alive.

Is it alive the moment it hatches?
Is it alive the moment the egg comes into being and it's nothing but yolk?
Does it become alive somewhere in between while it's maturing within the egg, and if so, when along that process?
Is it killing to destroy it when the cells that will eventually become the Jem'hadar have seperated once? Twice? fifty times? a hundred times? a million times? Where do you draw that particular line between "killing it" and "keeping it from existing in the first place". it's just something that everyone's going to have an opinion about, and has potential to get quite heated discussing it with someone who doesn't share your opinion.

Tangentially, kudos to most of this thread for keeping it civil, this is definitely one of those things that could easily descend into utter chaos and flaming, and I'm proud to be part of a community that can get this type of discussion to 26 pages (when I started writing this) without taking it somewhere that would need to see the thread locked.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 264
02-18-2010, 03:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darmak
Yup, they are sentient.
And they are weapons. Sure, I'll concede this as I feel it's irrelevant.

Let's ignore for a moment anything they might accomplish as a species as time moves forward.

Let me offer theoretical Human Culture Alpha: A caste based society.
You've been at war with them, and they are gnarly. Currently, things are peaceful, although rogue elements certainly remain. For the most part, none of their warrior caste are actively fighting. They are training for war, practicing the art of killing and honestly, weren't raised with anything else on their mind; that's all they know, all they care about.

You find yourself dispatching some rogue elements when you come across a room with a single old woman clutching some newborns in the corner. They bear the mark of the warrior caste and as such will grow up one day to fight... and nothing else. They might one day kill someone you care about... if they find themselves at war, you can be certain they will not show you or anyone else any mercy. But right now, they are innocent.

What do you do?
What would Kirk, Picard, Sisko or Janeway do?

Obviously, this is the Jem'Hadar with a twist... because it's human babies (can't use eggs... we're mammals). Thing is, as you said, the Jem'Hadar are sentient, so I feel no problems interchanging the Jem'Hadar for humans. Now, the Jem'Hadar are genetically engineered for war, so in good faith the theoretical culture was made to be a caste based system with heavy indoctrination from birth to make things more "fair"...

...but my hope is that it will permit some to see that perhaps it's not quite the grey area you once thought.
Those Jem'Hadar babies are alive and sentient~ish... (lets not go back to the abortion argument please)
They are bred for war, are only really interested in killing. But for the moment, they are innocent. It is not until they pick up a weapon and aim it at you do they become the enemy.

To preempt the future you presume is the same as killing the children of a warrior caste society on Earth.
That 'aint cool man. So not cool.
the problem is without a war they don't have a future. They have no mother, the eggs are "grown" not "born". Created

if the war ended and they were no longer needed as shock troops they would simple die out
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 265
02-18-2010, 03:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darmak
When a Vorta says, launch a ground assault on that base over there, do you think he maps out every soldiers plan? Not even close.
When I call my cat and let her know her food is prepared, I don't map out a strategy for her either. She figures out her own way to get to it. She may go through the living room into the kitchen, she may go through the dining room. She sets her own path based on her senses and her instinct. thats all she does. There is no sentience, my cat isn't part of a race of cats that has developed art and literature and culture. She's a domesticated cat. Bred to be a housepet. I'd argue thats all a Jem'Hadar does. Again, if my cat were a genetically engineered weapon designed to kill me, I'd probably not have fed it. It wouldn't be my pet cat, I'd have killed it. Long ago. Happily. You're assigning traits and qualities to Jem'Hadar that the founders intentionally didn't let them have. To say that one or two may have gone against the grain for whatever reason only proves the founders aren't 100% perfect geneticists. A Jem'hadar's inability to think or reason outside of what it was engineered or allowed to do makes it, at best, a tool. A Jem'Hadar is a drill. A hammer. An AK-47. It's not something that should be debated as sentient life. It can't determine it's own path. It needs a Vorta or a founder to tell it what to do. It doesn't "reason" an attack plan. It acts and reacts based on instincts it was designed to have. nothing else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darmak
If you put a gun in my hand and tell me to kill a small child, I won't. Repeat that experiment with a thousand people you'll get the same result. Are we "programmed" not to do so? Does this mean we have no free will?
We have similar moral parameters and driving goals, so do the Jem'Hadar...
...their parameters are narrow, but they do not lack free will.
I'd hope you wouldn't. But if a founder or a Vorta puts a gun in a Jem'Hadar's hand and says "kill that child" it does it. because it was ordered to. Put a thousand guns in a thousand jem'hadar hands and you'll have a thousand weeping parents. They do it because they have no moral parameters. Just instincts. Highly evolved instincts, maybe, but there are no moral parameters. And if the odd "faulty" jem'hadar hesitates, there's a thousand others who won't, and a thousand more in eggs that will just do what they're told, like murderous homicidal pets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darmak
If you infiltrated a caste based society, would you get a medal for blowing up a nursery containing infants who were of the warrior caste? Nope, not even in a time of war. Doesn't matter that one day they'd grown up to be warriors. Until they pick up a gun, begin training to kill you, or pull the trigger (depending on current relations) they remain innocent sentient.
Probably not, but again, you're attributing the status of "society" to the Jem'hadar. The Jem'hadar are the founder's genetically engineered, murderous, homicidal housepets. I wouldn't attribute the status of "society" to my cat, either.

Saying Jem'Hadar aren't slaughtering mercilessly in times of peace is bunk. The Jem'hadar are engineered by the founders to be perfect soldiers, devoid of cumbersome things like morals and free will. They are the military arm of the dominion. At times of war, they are created in vast numbers to overwhelm the enemy quickly. At times of peace, if there is such a thing in the dominion, they just scale back the number of Jem'Hadar they construct. Remember, these things can be grown to combat readiness in three days. Slaughter a whole division and three days later, it's back in action again. They're designed to be peerless combatants, but they're also designed to be expendable. Neither the founders not the Vorta consider the Jem'hadar to be anything more than glorified pets either. Neither of them would think twice about ordering one to eliminate itself if it found it faulty in some way, and the Jem'hadar would carry that out.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 266
02-18-2010, 03:46 PM
Thank you for the feedback. The feedback from the original post has been sent to the development team for review. Unfortunately the thread is being closed due to the discussion getting off topic and a bit out of hand.

-Destra
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