Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
12-09-2008, 07:31 PM
Christine's job is to write Star Trek stuff for STO... I'd kill for that job!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
12-09-2008, 08:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomRedshirt View Post

You can come to your own conclusions, I'll stick with mine.
.
No, that's the difference between you and I. You can make your baseless conclusions, yet I see no game killers in sight. Besides you should know that there's been more than a few moments in Star Trek that the writing was about as good as you or I could do, and most of the books are cheesy fan fiction.

Add to that the points that you never addressed.

1. They are not writing a TV show or a book, the team leaders should be someone who has knowledge in generating MMO instances, NOT Nacelle Pylon configurations.

2. Jack did not say they would let a "Veteran Writer" MANAGE their content. They may still have the hiring plan, or are already working with someone. You are just stacking the assumptions up.

3. You claim they said something and hired someone else. But Christine was already working there

No wonder you accuse me of making conclusions like you.

The other difference between you and I is your comparison of Cryptic doing Star Trek MMO content is to Kobe Bryant doing Broadway. What do you know about the Cryptic team, or a team member's abilities? You know nothing and your analogy is just silly and insulting. At least I can say I recognize the talent and the enthusiasm Cryptic has. Why don't you go ahead and post your expert opinions from others regarding the content writing... The truth is the writing has gotten a good reception. You also accuse them of rewriting stuff that's already been done by other writers. Well what eactly did you expect your seasoned Star Trek expert to do?

The more I think about it, I rejoice that they did not use your "hire a veteran to run things" strategy.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
12-09-2008, 11:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KO_Gilligan View Post
...The truth is the writing has gotten a good reception....
Sure. The writing that has been done by others. Others like veteran Trek novelists. The same ones that you put down earlier in your post with this remark:

Quote:
...and most of the books are cheesy fan fiction.
Perhaps you should learn to not contradict yourself before you attempt to tear down my posts.

And for the record, when the announcement was made in Vegas that Cryptic, we hadn't seen a thing from Kestrel regarding the history (aka the writing). So in fact, they did do a 180. Sure, Kestrel might have already been on staff, but they handed her the writing after making the statement about bringing in a veteran.

Oh, and one more thing:

Quote:
They are not writing a TV show or a book, the team leaders should be someone who has knowledge in generating MMO instances, NOT Nacelle Pylon configurations.
There are plenty of writers out there that have written Trek in a lot of mediums. Series Episodes, Books, Comic Books and Video Games. In fact, one of the most prominent writers of Trek, DC Fontana, has written in ALL those mediums, along with her writing partner Derek Chester, who wrote for Bridge Commander and Legacy. In fact, the two of them are the only writers who can claim they have written for all 5 Star Trek captains. (Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway and Archer.)

Are they not qualified per your ultra high standards that by your own logic don't seem to apply to the current writer? I mean, after all, DC Fontana has been writing Trek since Season 1 of TOS, but apparently according to your standards, doesn't know enough to write for STO.

Interesting philosophy you have there.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
12-10-2008, 04:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomRedshirt View Post
Sure. The writing that has been done by others. Others like veteran Trek novelists. The same ones that you put down earlier in your post with this remark:



Perhaps you should learn to not contradict yourself before you attempt to tear down my posts.

And for the record, when the announcement was made in Vegas that Cryptic, we hadn't seen a thing from Kestrel regarding the history (aka the writing). So in fact, they did do a 180. Sure, Kestrel might have already been on staff, but they handed her the writing after making the statement about bringing in a veteran.

Oh, and one more thing:



There are plenty of writers out there that have written Trek in a lot of mediums. Series Episodes, Books, Comic Books and Video Games. In fact, one of the most prominent writers of Trek, DC Fontana, has written in ALL those mediums, along with her writing partner Derek Chester, who wrote for Bridge Commander and Legacy. In fact, the two of them are the only writers who can claim they have written for all 5 Star Trek captains. (Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway and Archer.)

Are they not qualified per your ultra high standards that by your own logic don't seem to apply to the current writer? I mean, after all, DC Fontana has been writing Trek since Season 1 of TOS, but apparently according to your standards, doesn't know enough to write for STO.

Interesting philosophy you have there.
For someone who asked another member not to put words in your mouth about how terrible you think this all is, you now have eloquently misrepresented me, Cryptic, and their writers (when Jack's main message has always been how a large number of people have been long studying Trek to come up with ideas) But apparently you know that Cryptic could have easily hired a writer with game making experience
(have you played those games? - are the missions in them some kind of work of genius? I must have missed something if they were)

or they could have hired an expert book, comic book, or series writer.

What novel did Cryptic copy for the story? I don't believe you anymore, and I don't believe your statement that I insulted a specific work by calling the books cheesy, most of them certainly are either inconcievable or unlikely for use in a series or movie... that's the nature of book writing. Fitting a book story into an MMO's gameplay would ruin it. The background leading to launch is important, but it's not anything close to game breaker, and I personally could care less.

Single player games follow a long linear progression but an MMO is short story instances at best.
Finding an MMO skilled writer is an aspect that you keep neglecting.
Your strategy sounds like a waste of money to me, yet you think they are killing the game through carelessness.

Did I mischaracterize you yet? Bacause maybe I'm just not getting it.

I remember Jack said they were looking to hire a writer, was that the webcast or the HF thing ? What was the time marker ? Also could you tell me what your quoting from, did Jack actually say a "Veteran" or "Expert" or "Experienced Star Trek" writer? There is a difference. I submit that they really only needed a bit of help with this timeline progression, and they either did hire someone, or don't need them anymore.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
12-10-2008, 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KO_Gilligan View Post
What novel did Cryptic copy for the story? I don't believe you anymore, and I don't believe your statement that I insulted a specific work by calling the books cheesy, most of them certainly are either inconcievable or unlikely for use in a series or movie... that's the nature of book writing.
Wow, you really can't keep your story straight can you? One minute, all the books are cheesy, then the next minute, the writing that Kestrel has done is great, even though all those ideas were in the books, which you refer to as cheesy, then you don't even remember calling them cheesy at all.

You don't happen to work in D.C. do you? If not, I might suggest a career change.

And what novels were copied for the time line updates? Several actually. I could look them all up, but really, if you want to know, you ought to do that yourself. But basically, there are major plot elements from the following:

"Titan" Series
Death in Winter
Worlds of Deep Space 9
Avatar
Unity
A Stitch in Time
Articles of the Federation
Homecoming

Please feel free to check my facts here: http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

Now, so we are clear, I am not saying that the history written by Kestrel is a direct copy. But major events were taken from the books, and either kept the way they were in the novel, or slightly modified for the purposes of the Cryptic History.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
12-10-2008, 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomRedshirt View Post
Wow, you really can't keep your story straight can you? One minute, all the books are cheesy, then the next minute, the writing that Kestrel has done is great, even though all those ideas were in the books, which you refer to as cheesy, then you don't even remember calling them cheesy at all.

You don't happen to work in D.C. do you? If not, I might suggest a career change.

And what novels were copied for the time line updates? Several actually. I could look them all up, but really, if you want to know, you ought to do that yourself. But basically, there are major plot elements from the following:

"Titan" Series
Death in Winter
Worlds of Deep Space 9
Avatar
Unity
A Stitch in Time
Articles of the Federation
Homecoming

Please feel free to check my facts here: http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

Now, so we are clear, I am not saying that the history written by Kestrel is a direct copy. But major events were taken from the books, and either kept the way they were in the novel, or slightly modified for the purposes of the Cryptic History.
What'd you expect? Cryptic almost literally stated that they would be using books taking place after Nemesis to help write the story for ST:O. They confirmed that books would be considered soft canon, and then, gee, someone else already has created an idea for what happened in this time period, and we just lent them credibility by our own standards. How could they not keep the major events of those books? And note, they kept the major events. Like you said, they're not copying them, so what's the issue? Are writers not allowed to build upon previous ones in a series? Realize that not everyone has read even one of these books, let alone all of them or even a good portion. Cryptic is trying to get everyone up to speed on the story that has been established to take place after Nemesis. After this is accomplished, maybe then we'll see Kestrel's talents (or lack thereof, as you seem to be implying) take off as we see more original content conceptualized by her.

Until then, however, I suggest you cease the nitpicking and borderline personal attacks on a valuable and talented member of the team who is creating the game that I'm assuming you're here to discuss because you want to play it. I'm sure Christine doesn't appreciate trying to create a fun and enjoyable backstory to the hopefully fun and enjoyable game while people like yourself proceed to verbally (or textually, in this case) eviscerate her hard work. Especially since I've been shocked by your audacity to do so in this very thread, most likely in front of her eyes. Sounds real grateful, no?

Before you start attacking someone who you barely know and have only seen 3 small pieces of their work, try to consider not judging them. If you really are that displeased with the scenario, how about suggesting an alternative? Perhaps you could write your own take on the Path to 2409 (completely original, please, without any backing authors referenced, as you seem to place so much emphasis on this), and then we could all dissect it so thoroughly and viciously as you did? Or perhaps you don't want to do that, as having your hard work spit on is generally not a good feeling? Think about that next time you want to criticize another. As cliche as it may sound, the Golden Rule does tend to come in handy.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
12-10-2008, 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenblade View Post
What'd you expect? Cryptic almost literally stated that they would be using books taking place after Nemesis to help write the story for ST:O. They confirmed that books would be considered soft canon, and then, gee, someone else already has created an idea for what happened in this time period, and we just lent them credibility by our own standards. How could they not keep the major events of those books? And note, they kept the major events. Like you said, they're not copying them, so what's the issue? Are writers not allowed to build upon previous ones in a series? Realize that not everyone has read even one of these books, let alone all of them or even a good portion. Cryptic is trying to get everyone up to speed on the story that has been established to take place after Nemesis. After this is accomplished, maybe then we'll see Kestrel's talents (or lack thereof, as you seem to be implying) take off as we see more original content conceptualized by her.

Until then, however, I suggest you cease the nitpicking and borderline personal attacks on a valuable and talented member of the team who is creating the game that I'm assuming you're here to discuss because you want to play it. I'm sure Christine doesn't appreciate trying to create a fun and enjoyable backstory to the hopefully fun and enjoyable game while people like yourself proceed to verbally (or textually, in this case) eviscerate her hard work. Especially since I've been shocked by your audacity to do so in this very thread, most likely in front of her eyes. Sounds real grateful, no?

Before you start attacking someone who you barely know and have only seen 3 small pieces of their work, try to consider not judging them. If you really are that displeased with the scenario, how about suggesting an alternative? Perhaps you could write your own take on the Path to 2409 (completely original, please, without any backing authors referenced, as you seem to place so much emphasis on this), and then we could all dissect it so thoroughly and viciously as you did? Or perhaps you don't want to do that, as having your hard work spit on is generally not a good feeling? Think about that next time you want to criticize another. As cliche as it may sound, the Golden Rule does tend to come in handy.
The issue here is not the use of the novels as the basis for the backstory history from 2379 to 2409. What is at issue was KO_Gilligans assertions that Kestrel was a wonderfully talented writer that wrote this amazing story and is better than all other Trek novelists, series writers and game writers.

How can anyone truly know what the quality is of Kestrel's writings, when all the writings to date have been based on the work of others, or for a lack of better terms, a paraphrasing/summation of novels that occur post-Nemesis?

The original argument was not if Kestrel is a good writer or not. Obviously, if she was working for a fish wrapper, she must have some writing skill. Newspapers don't just hire Joe Shmoe off the street. What I questioned however was the assertion by Jack in Vegas that an experienced Trek writer was being brought in to handle the writing on STO, and instead, it appears the writing has been handed over to someone who has not written Trek at any time in the past.

If you choose to view my questioning of that as a personal attack, then that is your business, but I hardly see the similarity. If I had stupidly said "Kestrel is the worst writer ever and knows jack squat about Trek" then that would be considered a personal attack. But I never said that, nor did I elude to it. I did question her qualification to write Trek though, as she has no previous experience in the Trek arena. That, along with the assertion by Jack that an experienced TREK writer (ie someone who has written Trek before in some medium or another) leads me to question Cryptic's dedication to providing a quality Trek experience.

STO will not be Trek because of the gameplay. The gameplay itself will not feature anything unique to the Trek franchise itself. The only thing in the game that will make this game "Trek" is the writing, and based on that, it would seem that the most important component of the development team in assuring that this game "feels Trek" as Cryptic has vowed many times over, would be the wirting staff.

If Cryptic comes out and says they are going to be bringing in someone who is intimately familiar with the franchise to oversee the work done by the writing staff, I will gladly announce that I jumped the gun, apologize to the community, and shut my mouth. But something tells me that won't be happening.

Finally, as to your suggestion that I should write my own history of the Post-Nemesis events, perhaps I will. I know that my take on some of the events would be far different, which would have major impacts on the gameplay aspect, especially pertaining to the Klingons suddenly becoming our enemies once again. But yes, I could write a history of Post Nemesis. After all, I have seen all the Trek series, read many of the books, played the games, etc. But, like Kestrel, I have never written Trek myself before, therefore, what would make me anymore qualified to do such a task?

Fact is, I would not be qualified to do so. Hence my argument that the writing of Trek for STO should be handled by someone who has written Trek before, in order to ensure that the story within the game has the most "Trek" feel to it as is possible which is the most vital component to making STO feel "Trek".
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
12-10-2008, 04:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomRedshirt View Post
What is at issue was KO_Gilligans assertions that Kestrel was a wonderfully talented writer that wrote this amazing story and is better than all other Trek novelists, series writers and game writers.

Well, that's not exactly what I said.

But I think she's pretty darn cool, and the team of Cryptic feels that she's up to it. Fans have enjoyed the synopsis so far.

I'm not going to change your mind about it feeling like Trek when you've made you decision before playing it. It's obvious you are not gonna like the game no matter what.
Yet I suspect you have fair weather feelings, and will jump off the bash mobile once it's a popular game.

I remember a fine and valued member of Cryptic's staff once told me of STO, that they won't be able to make everyone happy (in paraphrase).

Well I guess that says it all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
12-11-2008, 12:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KO_Gilligan View Post
Well, that's not exactly what I said.

But I think she's pretty darn cool, and the team of Cryptic feels that she's up to it. Fans have enjoyed the synopsis so far.

I'm not going to change your mind about it feeling like Trek when you've made you decision before playing it. It's obvious you are not gonna like the game no matter what.
Yet I suspect you have fair weather feelings, and will jump off the bash mobile once it's a popular game.

I remember a fine and valued member of Cryptic's staff once told me of STO, that they won't be able to make everyone happy (in paraphrase).

Well I guess that says it all.
QFT

Naysayers have this tendency to pick out only the most negative aspects of something, before we even have enough information to actually judge it on. It's just kind of sad how adamant they are in keeping that very narrow view of the future for this game.
I, for one, will continue to remain positive about the story and STO in general. There'll be plenty of detractors, but I have a feeling people will be pleasantly surprised when Cryptic finally puts out a great game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
12-14-2008, 01:16 PM
To the two folks arguing in the forums: TAKE IT TO PRIVATE MESSAGES

Not everyone wants to listen to the negativity and the accusations and blah blah blah... It is nothing more than forum clutter.

To everyone else, they are working to make this game great and I, for one, appreciate what they are doing. They are well aware there are options now with more to come in the Science Fiction genre (STO, SWTOR, SG:W, and soon 40kO or Warhammer 40,000 Online for those of you unfamiliar with the setting... it's being done by THQ which means it has just as many resources as Cryptic does now that they have Atari financing everything... so we have Cryptic, Bioware, CME, and Vigil studios under THQ, lots of talented competition). Quite simply, if they don't put out a quality gaming experience, they won't survive. So please stop with the mumblings about them not doing Star Trek justice and this and that blah blah... it's old, it's boring, and it's not what I come to these forums to read.

That is all.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:13 PM.