Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Hi there,

this thread might appear as another Whine-Thread, but it is not intended as one. Although I could whine after dueling a science, there seems to be some aspects of space combat in disorder.

As a tactical officer commanding a escort, I should be THE ONE damage dealer in the game, but I am not.
First problem are Excelsiors: With their Lt. Cmdr Tactical slot they are the superior ship regarding damage AND resilience (?). It's more maneuverable than the Assault Cruiser and is capable of dealing much more damage, which makes the Assault Cruiser obsolete.
When ships become outweighted by other ships, matching a similar purpose, this is a balancing issue which needs to be fixed soon.
An engineering officer deals more damage command excelsior than a tactical escort captain.

Another problem are the impenetrable defenses of cruisers (especially commanded by an engineer) and impenetrable shields on science ship. I'm doing a remarkable amount of damage, but with an opponent matching one of these settings, I'm loosing sooner or later. Although I can tank out excelsiors and science ships for several minutes, it gets way to much the more time a fight takes.

I fought against an engineer commanding a Excelsior and a science commanding a Reconnaissance Science Vessel and both dealed more damage than I could do.

This is also, cause you're only able to deal heavy damage during the first approach. After this you barely get your target into your firing arc for more than a second. How could you deal damage then? Your opponent doesn't care bout this due to his lovely beam arrays, covering almost every possible firing arc and an escorts turn rate does not compensate it.

What do to?
There are several possibilities to tackle the problem:
  1. decrease combat speed significantly on max level and as such the increase of speed during rank-up (NOT Full-Impulse speed)
  2. increase weapon ranges (this could be a problem, as all maps would be needed to adjust this: LOTS of work)
  3. grant tactical captains an ability to weaken enemy shields (the opposite of shield damage reduction)

Well, guess that's enough for the moment.
As you may already be aware of, english is not my native language. So if you find wrong vocabulary or other mistakes, feel free to send me the correction. I'm always eager to further improve my english.
Otherwise this thread is in the first instance for other players experiencing such problems as described above.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
02-28-2011, 05:13 PM
Quote:
# grant tactical captains an ability to weaken enemy shields (the opposite of shield damage reduction)
Target Shield Subsystems already does this indirectly, but I think the idea has potential as a debuff ability on its own.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
02-28-2011, 06:49 PM
I know many an escort that can rip through my Excelsior shields. So I think you should review your setup. How about providing your load out, console setup and power levels.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
02-28-2011, 09:16 PM
I find this to be a case of experience vs. inexperience.

I have flown every standard ship in the game up to vice admiral/lt general level... based on the experience I have gained throughout my various builds/ships, I have learned many things. Things that have given me a better understanding of game mechanics and how to best utilize each ship in an effective manner.

Problem:
First of all, a cruiser is ALWAYS going to be a defensive powerhouse, especially with a good engineer build and a reasonably smart player. They already come equipped with many defensive and power level increases that other career classes just dont have. Many tactically powerful cruiser captain now use beam overload 2 (or 3 in an excelsior) with dual beam banks. That alone tends to give them a good solid damage base that keeps them competitive. A cruisers biggest advantage is buffs, and really no amount of your tactical debuffs are going to cripple them.

Solution:
1 on 1, an escort has a distinct disadvantage to cruisers... your ONLY saving grace is maneuverability and speed. If you can stop a cruiser from healing for a few moments, and if you can time your spike damage to focus on a single shield facing, you can usually drill enough damage into them to make a difference. Keep applying pressure and stay away from their rear if they have eject warp plasma... because that is an escorts greatest enemy. Even then, without additional support from a sci using subnucleonic beam, or another escort applying pressure on the same facing... your chances of success are pretty slim.

Problem:
Science vessels are difficult to take down because they are an even mix of buffs/debuffs/holds/stuns/heals/DoT... really they have a bottomless bag of tricks to draw from. That is what makes them so dangerous. Even if you manage to counter 1 or 2 of their tricks, they still have several more just waiting to be unleashed at the right time. They can be defensive powerhouses, or offensive 'magicians', or an even mix. I find that sci vessels are EASY opponents to bring down, as long as your strike hard and fast... and as long as you haven't drawn their undivided attention. Once they have targeted you, and are using their tricks all upon you, your day is going to be a sad one. LOL

Solution:
Keep outside of their attention, make sure you strike quickly and with as much power as possible. If you can nail them before they start dropping their buffs, then your going to have an easy time of it. Save all your spike damage for your initial strike when their attention is focused elsewhere and your going to find that they are pretty squishy targets.

The reason you find escorts lacking, is due to the fact that your a squishy target... in ANY pvp match, the enemies are normally going to target you first for 2 reasons:

1. You die a LOT easier than any other ship...
2. You can unload a rediculous amount of crippling damage upon them if left to your own devices.

As an escort captain, I have found myself the prime target at the outset of every engagement. If you can stay back and keep a low profile, and can escape severe danger quickly and effectively... then you will find you do a LOT more damage because you survive longer. At Vice Admiral level with my prometheus tac captain... I was averaging 500k damage or MORE each match. Some of that is luck, some of that is good teamwork, and some of it is unskilled opponents... but most of it is a good build and a smart approach.

A skill that ALWAYS benefits my tac captain more than anything else is Scatter Volley 3 used with 3 dual heavy cannons and 2 aft turrets. That tends to create enough chaos that you have MULTIPLE enemies throwing up buffs just to repel your ONE attack, while your allies help to finish them off.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
03-02-2011, 04:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Treagersama View Post
I find this to be a case of experience vs. inexperience.

I have flown every standard ship in the game up to vice admiral/lt general level... based on the experience I have gained throughout my various builds/ships, I have learned many things. Things that have given me a better understanding of game mechanics and how to best utilize each ship in an effective manner.

Problem:
First of all, a cruiser is ALWAYS going to be a defensive powerhouse, especially with a good engineer build and a reasonably smart player. They already come equipped with many defensive and power level increases that other career classes just dont have. Many tactically powerful cruiser captain now use beam overload 2 (or 3 in an excelsior) with dual beam banks. That alone tends to give them a good solid damage base that keeps them competitive. A cruisers biggest advantage is buffs, and really no amount of your tactical debuffs are going to cripple them.

Solution:
1 on 1, an escort has a distinct disadvantage to cruisers... your ONLY saving grace is maneuverability and speed. If you can stop a cruiser from healing for a few moments, and if you can time your spike damage to focus on a single shield facing, you can usually drill enough damage into them to make a difference. Keep applying pressure and stay away from their rear if they have eject warp plasma... because that is an escorts greatest enemy. Even then, without additional support from a sci using subnucleonic beam, or another escort applying pressure on the same facing... your chances of success are pretty slim.
Sorry, but marking maneuverability and speed as your only advantages is a whole bunch of ****. They don't care bout your speed or maneuverability, due to their 250 firing arcs with beams. If you shoot engineers out of their cruisers they're simply not a pilot on the upper end of the scale. And good Excelsior engineering captains dealing more damage than similar tactical captain commanding a escort is a massive balancing problem!
Keeping pressure.... if it wouldn't make my cry, maybe I could laugh about it. After your first approach you really get problems making pressure. For another full approach you need to get more than a dozen of km away, turn around and make another approach. Until you're ready to deliver some damage, your opponents buffs are ready again, making him laugh for your desperate try to finish him!
And getting back to maneuverability and speed: Your innate 10% defense is a joke:

Quote:
Escort/Raider/Raptor innate Defense set to 10% max. The Defense bonus is tied to the ship's speed, but reaches the max bonus at average speeds.
I'm loosing my max defense even when reducing throttle by 10%. With this feature working properly would at least solve your problem of delivering damage for more than 2 seconds during an approach.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Treagersama View Post
Problem:
Science vessels are difficult to take down because they are an even mix of buffs/debuffs/holds/stuns/heals/DoT... really they have a bottomless bag of tricks to draw from. That is what makes them so dangerous. Even if you manage to counter 1 or 2 of their tricks, they still have several more just waiting to be unleashed at the right time. They can be defensive powerhouses, or offensive 'magicians', or an even mix. I find that sci vessels are EASY opponents to bring down, as long as your strike hard and fast... and as long as you haven't drawn their undivided attention. Once they have targeted you, and are using their tricks all upon you, your day is going to be a sad one. LOL

Solution:
Keep outside of their attention, make sure you strike quickly and with as much power as possible. If you can nail them before they start dropping their buffs, then your going to have an easy time of it. Save all your spike damage for your initial strike when their attention is focused elsewhere and your going to find that they are pretty squishy targets.
You're still speaking of group pvp. But to get a proper balancing you need to balance out each class against one another. And with their massive shield you barely can get damage to their hull. Having them debuff, cripple almost every action you take, makes it even harder. And regarding engineers and science captains as opponent, you only got a full alphastrike every 5 minutes, using APA, GDF, TF and anything else to boost your damage. Disclaiming Tactical Fleet due to it's long cooldown, you damage increases by a remarkable amount, but it's never enough to get past the defenses of these two classes.


I'll provide some details about my offensive capabilities:
Cannon: Rapid Fire I & III
Torpedo: High Yield I & II
2 Attack Patterns

124 weapon energy, 50 shield energy (can't remember the ingame value including all bonuses), 30 engine energy (same here).

So I got almost max damage and maximum defense of 70% with full speed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
03-02-2011, 09:37 PM
1 on 1 an escort will not beat a cruiser with an engineering pilot, providing that the cruiser captain is of moderate skill. if everything was equal, whats the point of different ships?.. 1 on 1, cruisers will more times than not beat an escort, thats just the way it is. i wouldnt expect the defiant to defeat the enterprise D or E, or a bop to defeat a negh'var in the series, so why should it in the game

and its lose, not loose; you are losing power, not loosing power..
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
03-02-2011, 10:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
But to get a proper balancing you need to balance out each class against one another.
All PvP in this game happens, by design, in teams. So it will never be balanced (intentionally) 1v1. They may try to ensure that each class has a viable role to play in PvP, and maybe some 1v1 "balance" will happen by accident. But 1v1 balance will never be the goal, nor should it be.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
03-02-2011, 10:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
Sorry, but marking maneuverability and speed as your only advantages is a whole bunch of ****. They don't care bout your speed or maneuverability, due to their 250 firing arcs with beams. If you shoot engineers out of their cruisers they're simply not a pilot on the upper end of the scale. And good Excelsior engineering captains dealing more damage than similar tactical captain commanding a escort is a massive balancing problem!

I really havent had a problem with this as you seem to have. I have approached most cruisers on their flank, wipe out their shields with an alpha strike and as they recover or try to reposition their exposed side away from me, I keep on pouring on more damage. Beam overload 2 or 3 with an aft beam array seems to help with this as your keeping their 'soft side' facing you. When they move, you move... when they slow down, you slow down. With the subspace field modulator, polarize hull, emergency power to shields 2, and a good covariant shield... you can keep most cruisers from outdamaging you as they are trying to limp away to safety. I don't have a problem with this, what is it your doing differently?

Keeping pressure.... if it wouldn't make my cry, maybe I could laugh about it. After your first approach you really get problems making pressure. For another full approach you need to get more than a dozen of km away, turn around and make another approach. Until you're ready to deliver some damage, your opponents buffs are ready again, making him laugh for your desperate try to finish him!
And getting back to maneuverability and speed: Your innate 10% defense is a joke: I'm loosing my max defense even when reducing throttle by 10%. With this feature working properly would at least solve your problem of delivering damage for more than 2 seconds during an approach.

Sooo who says you have to approach, and then fly away? It sounds to me that your defenses are sorely lacking and need some adjusting. I fly up, apply pressure, and keep with them until they are either crippled, destroyed, or they simply outmatch me (Carriers, exceptional captains, or additional enemies pooling defenses...). So if your flying around at full speed all the time, it's no wonder you can't keep the damage constant. Your strongest escort captains don't just hit and run unless absolutely necissary... they will PRESS the enemy until they cave, or you take critical damage.

You're still speaking of group pvp. But to get a proper balancing you need to balance out each class against one another. And with their massive shield you barely can get damage to their hull. Having them debuff, cripple almost every action you take, makes it even harder. And regarding engineers and science captains as opponent, you only got a full alphastrike every 5 minutes, using APA, GDF, TF and anything else to boost your damage. Disclaiming Tactical Fleet due to it's long cooldown, you damage increases by a remarkable amount, but it's never enough to get past the defenses of these two classes.

I still don't understand why this is such a difficult task for you... Do you really use every buff you have on the very first run? That is a death sentance when your against a sci ship. One subnucleonic beam, and your pretty much a bee buzzing noisily through space... a petty annoyance. I tend to stagger my buffs to maintain consistantly good damage throughout the match. Go down fighting is one of my favorite behind attack pattern alpha... in conjunction with fire on my mark... devistating.

I'll provide some details about my offensive capabilities:
Cannon: Rapid Fire I & III
Torpedo: High Yield I & II
2 Attack Patterns
124 weapon energy, 50 shield energy (can't remember the ingame value including all bonuses), 30 engine energy (same here).
So I got almost max damage and maximum defense of 70% with full speed.
Currently, my escort (Prometheus class with a tac captain) is running:

Tac:
Scatter volley 3, 2
High Yield 3, 2
Beam Overload 2
Subsystem targeting: engines 1
Fire at Will 1
Eng:
Eng Team 1
Emergency Pwr Shields 2
Sci:
Sci Team 1
Hazard Emitters 2
Polarize Hull 1

Weapon: 125
Shields: 78
Engines: 52
Aux: 52

Fore: 3 Dual Heavy Tetryon Cannons, 1 Quantum Torp
Aft: 1 Tetryon Turret, 1 Tetryon Beam Array, 1 Tricobalt Torp Launcher

With this setup... I can usually hold my own against most opponents... (Carriers excluded...) and I never seem to run into the problems you seem to encounter. *Shrug* I wonder why that is...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
03-03-2011, 10:19 AM
I can agree with some of the angst in here as it often seems that the TAC is subpar in his field of expertise against Science, but I do not agree that vessel should be balanced to a 1v1 basis.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
03-03-2011, 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post

As a tactical officer commanding a escort, I should be THE ONE damage dealer in the game,
I don't agree with this premise.
Reply

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