Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 101
04-10-2010, 10:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Dravis
No, my point is that the game developer shifts the responsibility of creating and maintaining functional UI away from themselves and onto the players. I elaborated how and why that occurs.

Which means that, yes, a player can choose not to use a UI mod, but they significantly diminish their gameplay experience because the mods become virtually necessary to play with/against other players, especially at end-game.

By giving away the responsibility for UI, the developer implicitly forces users to rely on their own solutions. As paying customers -- even lifetime subscribers, who may choose to invest even more (via C-Store and other promotional offers) -- we shouldn't need to rely on amateurs for our UI. That should be the responsibility of the developers we paid.
With the exception of quest mods, like Questhelper, TomTom, and Lightheaded, almost all mods use already available information. There are a few others that gather dps/threat information as well, but over the years, even Blizz has incorporated some of these mods into WoW, such as the new quest tracker and map.

I am all for mods that allow the reorganization of already available information. I don't really care for mods that grabs gameplay data that isn't already available to players through an existing UI. I am very much for UI skinning, LotRO uses this and for the most part its nice.

I am not against utility mods/ui such as WIM or Prat or other mods that allow existing information to made available in other ways, such as perhaps a small window that shows ship information, which is already contained in the current ui or under the status page in the character ui. I also don't have an issue with a UI that combines information such as shields/weapons/energy/hull/crew into a single UI display. All this information is already available to the player.

But I do oppose mods that gather game data, makes calculations and then presents that information to the player, such as a DPS meter. This information isn't directly available to the average player. Most players just figure it out because they know how to do the math. A condition of any player to join a group doing and STF, shouldn't be "How much DPS can you generate". This is how it is in WoW and I have always disagreed with it. There are many mods that shouldn't be allowed in game, however there are some that are useful but available mods should only be able to gather existing that is located within some part of the default UI.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 102
04-11-2010, 07:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraevac View Post
But I do oppose mods that gather game data, makes calculations and then presents that information to the player,
Exactly.

Once the code-base is opened to user modding, there will be nothing preventing that type of injection into the functionality.

Which is why I would prefer if the re-organisation (or different methods of presentation) of already available game data, was left in the hands of the developers.

I would be happy if users could -submit- such mods to Cryptic (for consideration of inclusion in future patches), but users should not be able to apply any mods to the game client.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 103
04-11-2010, 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jransom View Post
Some people internally here (who have clout) have been pushing for UI mods for some time now for both STO and CO. It is a huge task to get that set up given the nature of our UI code so no decision has yet been made to go ahead and make it. I will send this thread to some people internally for more encouragement.
As the original author of the wow mod "decursive" I can say that UI mods are a slippery slope

any time there is a branching logic (If-Then-Else, do-while) in a UI mod, it can and will be abused.

I don't have anything against customizable UI... there is allot you can do with a descriptor framework (XML normally), built in functions, and graphics

but please... please don't add "logic" to the games UI... it is a very dangerous thing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 104
04-11-2010, 01:48 PM
I would just be happy if I could take the WEAPON icons OUT of the first toolbar and keep them out. I would use a different bar (3-10) but I cannot get my Devices (batteries) to show up/drag into any bar but number 1.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 105
04-11-2010, 01:53 PM
i would like to be able to use an xml document to "define" the UI... ie what information i want to show, and how it is layed out (or if it is moveable)... all the functions and ifformaation can be designed into the schema of the xml document so that we can't write our own functions... basically giving us the freedom to customize what we see, and how the ifnromation is layed out, but restricting us from providing logic in the UI... information = good, logic = bad
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 106
04-12-2010, 07:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FizixMan View Post
Regarding the two posters above:

Isn't that the responsibility of the player? If you don't want to deal with those issues, don't use any UI mods. If you choose to use mods, then it's your responsibility to maintain it (or break it).
The problem to me seems to be that the basic GUI will see less improvement and problems are never really fixed, since no one is using it regularly. Everyone will be pointed to mods once they encounter issues. So there is litlte chance that the WoW interface will ever improve on its own.

That means you ultimiately never have the choice to "play it safe", because the game might be unplayable or too difficult without such mods.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 107
04-12-2010, 07:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
The problem to me seems to be that the basic GUI will see less improvement and problems are never really fixed, since no one is using it regularly. Everyone will be pointed to mods once they encounter issues. So there is litlte chance that the WoW interface will ever improve on its own.

That means you ultimiately never have the choice to "play it safe", because the game might be unplayable or too difficult without such mods.
Actually... mods is one of the reasons that the WoW interface has evolved so much... I don't know if you ever played it with version 1 of WoW... but the interface they launched with is a world of difference from the one now.

What the blizzard developers would do is look at all of the popular mods (and some of the not so popular ones) and evaluate them. If it was something they did not want players doing, they would change the functionality (slowly). If it was something nice, but in their minds unimportant to the core game play, they would do nothing. If it was something lacking in the UI that people were required to use mods for, they would figure out a way to integrate the functionality within the core UI, or at least the functionality they felt was important.

Scrolling combat text
raid frames
target of target
there is allot of core UI elements that they have learned from the UI modding community and integrated into the core UI. I had dinner with soulken one blizzcon, he explained this to me.

UI mods is a double edged sword... it can seam very liberating and fun, but from a game play balance it can be painful.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 108
04-12-2010, 07:36 AM
All for the ui mods! /signed
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 109
04-12-2010, 08:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Dravis
I do not want to see user modding of anything in STO, with the exception of the current one-line command keybinds we can make. I want the responsibility for functional UI to remain with the paid developer.

I played WoW for several years, and while I enjoyed the freedom it gave the modding community, it just created headaches for end-users in three ways:

1) Required end-users to update constantly whenever a new game patch was released. And heaven forbid a modder quit the game, forcing end-users to look elsewhere for their solutions, because the developer had ceded responsibility for providing such solutions.

2) Some player groups ended up relying on mods (because they clearly enhanced gameplay, or made gameplay easier or more convenient) to the extent that mods became required (for most players) for gameplay past a certain point (i.e., end-game). In other words, playing with/against players using mods, required the use of mods in order to compete (or have a better chance at success).

3) Security is always a tremendous risk with user mods, especially modding community sites. There has been malware proliferation even among the 'big' (most notable and commonly accepted as 'reputable') mod database sites. This puts extra responsibility on the end-user, which means extra time and money needed by the end-user.

===

In other words, no offense to Cryptic, but I don't care that you are over-burdened right now. It is your paid responsibility to provide us with functional UI, and to implement enhancements as/when gameplay requires and/or we desire.

Thank you for your consideration of this request, and apologies for ruffling any feathers with my wording.

Well I did not think I really cared much about this issue. That is until I read this post.. Matt Makes perfect sense here. His points are very valid and can not be over looked. I have in the past used UI mods for games like ***, UO and vanguard. They did get pretty messy and the fear of using a mod with a hidden Key logger for passwords was always there.

I officially am on board with Matt, so count my voice as for "Against" the ability to build custom UI mods for STO.

Further more I think Cryptic you have many many more issues that need attention, please dont bother yourself with something that could ultimately cause more work / maintenance then its worth.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 110
04-12-2010, 08:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jransom View Post
Some people internally here (who have clout) have been pushing for UI mods for some time now for both STO and CO. It is a huge task to get that set up given the nature of our UI code so no decision has yet been made to go ahead and make it. I will send this thread to some people internally for more encouragement.
I appreciate the help.

I do understand both sides of the Mod issue. Let me give you some examples of mods in WoW that i like:

Fanvorite: DagAssist - This allows for button on your minimap that, when clicked, has all your professions, Portals/Teleports if you are a mage, aspects if you are a hunter, etc. This frees up soooo many slots on my hot bars it is amazing.

Advanced skill mod
Auctioneer (must have) - No offense but Cryptic's Auction interface blows nads
Bar mods - I have a Logitiech G15 keyboard with 3 groups of 6 buttons. Would be nice to rearrange my bars to match.
Guild2Guild: Allowed guilds to share the same officer/fleet chat. Very nice when you have multiple guilds or allies you want to get with for fleet actions.

Mods I would like to see:

DPS mod. Why? No...not because I want to see how much DPS others do. I want to know what I do. I hated them in wow because of the reason given earlier in the thread, "how much DPS do you put out" , but because this game can be very complicated when trying to get the right skills matched up with the right consoles and weapons to maximize your tanking, DPS or healing. By the way...what the hell does + to Astrometrics do??

Map Mod: I would give my left ___ for a Sector tab at the top of the map. I would love to be able to quickly see what systems are in what sector. That would make life so much better.

I am 51 years old and I bet there are a lot of folks in my age group playing STO. I love this game. I work two jobs and when I get time to play I want to be able to quickly determine what piece of equipment works for my build. I want my bars set up for me to easily recognize the setup.

WoW was my first MMO. I have tried others but never made it past the 30 day free play. The reason? Mainly because WoW spoiled me with Mods. I love the idea of being able to customize the way the game plays for me. Besides...I am left handed and have to change alot of the keyboard functions to lefty usage. The only reason I am past the free time on STO is because I am a ST fan and paid the lifetime so I would force myself to keep playing

Thanks for listening and thanks for moving this thread forward to the powers that be.

--Cap
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