Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 51
03-05-2010, 08:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lathian
At the point combat starts diplomacy ends. There is no running around shooting things while you are doing diplomacy as that wouldn't make sense.

If "when combat starts diplomacy ends" then the reverse must also be true; that is "when diplomacy starts combat ends" -- this is the problem that your refusing to address within the context of group play in an MMO -- what mechanism are you going to employ that will not create the MMO equivilant of "dead air" for the others in the group?

Additionally you are clearly implying that there will be a plethora of "cards" and "skills" to support them, clearly anticipating a very major development cycle and continuing development investment into this. I would suggest given what has already transpired that assuming such a massive dev investment is ... ambitious.

Your not thinking MMO. You need to address these very real issues instead of launching on a defense of "card game" diplomacy and a vanilla re-hash of what that is.

Or to paraphrase; "Don't wait for the translation. Answer the question."



Edit: I'll make this easy on you. If you are absolutely married to a "card game" only solution, the first thing your going to have to do is scale the concept down.

Let's say you go with something like this ->

Allow only a single "card" to be equipped as primary and a single as secondary at a time (just like you have your 2 weapons equipped)

Have your diplomacy "card game" work in a single automatic event.


Each "side" to the diplomacy gets a "hand" of say, 5 cards.

For player groups, each member contributes their primary, then starting with the team leader their secondary card until the "hand" is filled out. This is done automatically, the players having already setup their primary and secondary cards (if they have them)

For NPC's the designer can assign appropriate cards.

"Empty" slots in either hand after the above two steps are randomly filled.

The hands are compared giving a "win/loose/(draw?)" result function.

I would suggest that poker could then be used as an underlying valuation framework. Where player "diplo skill" cards are face card values and the "random fill" cards are digit card values. This would provide an automatic set of known rules that almost every programmer has performed and a great deal of the population understand.

You could further extend this analogy where "red" cards are "positive" diplomatic cards and "black" cards are "negative" diplomatic cards (i.e., Intimidation, etc.)

No extensive diplomacy skill tree for the developers to have to support or adjust skill caps for, just a simple automatic resolution event, the character slots in the UI and graphics to accompany the card objects, and the fleshing out of the card objects themselves. However, using a known "card" method you know there are a max of 52, which you can label as different things but "have" really only two values -- color and rank.

Whatever -- but you get the point --> involve everyone, resolve it quick, and keep the game moving. STO already has an established game flow, it's not going to slow down for Vanguard and/or Yu-Gi-Oh.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 52
03-06-2010, 04:30 AM
I am not that big a fan of mini games in MMOs...but your screen shots intrigue me. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 53
03-06-2010, 04:40 AM
Truly outstanding!

Sir, I salute you!

o7
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 54
03-06-2010, 05:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by malize View Post
If "when combat starts diplomacy ends" then the reverse must also be true; that is "when diplomacy starts combat ends" -- this is the problem that your refusing to address within the context of group play in an MMO -- what mechanism are you going to employ that will not create the MMO equivilant of "dead air" for the others in the group?

Additionally you are clearly implying that there will be a plethora of "cards" and "skills" to support them, clearly anticipating a very major development cycle and continuing development investment into this. I would suggest given what has already transpired that assuming such a massive dev investment is ... ambitious.

Your not thinking MMO. You need to address these very real issues instead of launching on a defense of "card game" diplomacy and a vanilla re-hash of what that is.

Or to paraphrase; "Don't wait for the translation. Answer the question."



Edit: I'll make this easy on you. If you are absolutely married to a "card game" only solution, the first thing your going to have to do is scale the concept down.

Let's say you go with something like this ->

Allow only a single "card" to be equipped as primary and a single as secondary at a time (just like you have your 2 weapons equipped)

Have your diplomacy "card game" work in a single automatic event.


Each "side" to the diplomacy gets a "hand" of say, 5 cards.

For player groups, each member contributes their primary, then starting with the team leader their secondary card until the "hand" is filled out. This is done automatically, the players having already setup their primary and secondary cards (if they have them)

For NPC's the designer can assign appropriate cards.

"Empty" slots in either hand after the above two steps are randomly filled.

The hands are compared giving a "win/loose/(draw?)" result function.

I would suggest that poker could then be used as an underlying valuation framework. Where player "diplo skill" cards are face card values and the "random fill" cards are digit card values. This would provide an automatic set of known rules that almost every programmer has performed and a great deal of the population understand.

You could further extend this analogy where "red" cards are "positive" diplomatic cards and "black" cards are "negative" diplomatic cards (i.e., Intimidation, etc.)

No extensive diplomacy skill tree for the developers to have to support or adjust skill caps for, just a simple automatic resolution event, the character slots in the UI and graphics to accompany the card objects, and the fleshing out of the card objects themselves. However, using a known "card" method you know there are a max of 52, which you can label as different things but "have" really only two values -- color and rank.

Whatever -- but you get the point --> involve everyone, resolve it quick, and keep the game moving. STO already has an established game flow, it's not going to slow down for Vanguard and/or Yu-Gi-Oh.
Let me put it another way. You do not have the option of combat when you are in a diplomatic setting. You don't go to trade talks and open fire on them, at least not as Star Fleet. And if they need to do this in a mission, no diplomacy will be used but instead, the current combat system will be used. That is what I meant by when combat begins, diplomacy ends. When you beam down to the world all the folks join in on the diplomactic talks and they could add a setup like a room with chairs or whatever where people discuss things as the diplomatic window overlays. When you leave the diplomatic talks you are back into combat system such as system space or ground combat.

As for the "card mechanics", I don't care that they look like cards as I am only thinking of conceptual mechanics behind it so they can attempt to bring about the feel of diplmatic negitions we saw from Star Trek. I also don't see skills as being needed for it, as the "cards" are the skills you use. As you participate you earn "card" options that are your abilities to use in diplomacy.

Poker as the game behind it is simply a mechanic and they can use that if they wish. I don't care, but in poker game your characters personality doesn't matter since you can't play as a Picard like philsopher but instead are forced into a Riker like poker player. Everyone plays the diplomacy the same in that setup. That is fine if they want to do a simple diplomatic game and move on but if they want depth they should try and think of the personalities from the series that players would want to be like. What types of things would Picard or Janeway do in negotiations?

The poker games negative is that it is typically one player against all the others. Instead you want want a game where you cooperate with your team to disable the other team. Or you cooperate to win favor with the other team and score a certain amount of points against their arguments and concerns.

If you want a really simple system I suppose you could use Rock, Paper and Scissors setup. Maybe that would be quick enough. But that wouldn't feel very diplomatic as it would be handled very quickly. Nor could you really cooperate and work together with your team.

The only reason I brought up the card concept as a mechanic is because you can allow players to setup their character "Theme" akin to the captains from the series. Philosophical arguments, strange prose, techno bable, telepathic abilities, dangers looks and simple bluffs. Yes, the point is to allow the players to customize their characters for diplomacy by picking the "cards" so they can feel like Picard, Kirk, Janeway and so on. So when I go to the negotiations with my friend he has his personality and I have my captains and we attempt to use our strengths to win together.

Of course we could have diplomacy be a very generic 15 seconds. If that is what people want just use rock, paper and scissors. After you win 3 rounds of rock, paper and scissors the negotations are over. But that is boring and non-cooperative nor allows real strategy.

Here is the main question they need to ask themselves:
When I am playing this "card" game does it feel like diplomatic talks we would see from the series and the characters from the series? Do I feel like I am in a trade negotation or am I just playing poker? If it feels like I am just playing poker, it isn't right for the diplomacy gameplay.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 55
03-06-2010, 06:24 AM
Glad to see this thread back again! Just as outstanding (if not more so) as it was back in beta.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 56
03-06-2010, 06:55 AM
this is really nice !

bumping this thread for the Dev !
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 57
03-06-2010, 07:25 AM
Wow! What a great idea! I WANT!!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 58
03-06-2010, 11:58 AM
Utterly fantastic.
This has been obvious in its merits for some time, but impossible to demonstrate until now. You have done an excellent job depicting how this could work, be immersive add to the game and still "feel" trek.

+10 for you sir.

Pictures, in your case, are worth a thousand posts.
A Star Trek game encompassing what STO attempts really ought to have had this from the beginning.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 59
03-06-2010, 01:50 PM
Devs, look at this. Now you could justify increasing the rewards for those scanning missions (might have to reduce the number of sites to scan if the games take a few minutes apiece).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 60
03-07-2010, 12:55 PM
Those things are so beautiful... I'd really like to play a couple of them.
Scanning objects on planets is even more painful knowing just how precisely better it could be.
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