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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
02-25-2010, 03:08 PM
Quoting me out of context doesn't prove anything, sorry.

The only reason why traits don't matter is because this game is so easy that small bonuses never make the difference, that doesn't mean people are wrong for wanting them. Don't make an argument based on the idea that everyone who wants character customization to be meaningful and pick things that are useful is simply wrong.

Sure, Vulcans are Strong and Logical and can Nerve Pinch and Mind Meld - every single one of those is a trait all by itself, so you have to blow all four traits to even get the baseline for a character equivalent of Spock, and that leaves you with no points to take any other traits. That's just stupid because it robs people of much more useful bonuses just because they want their character to resemble a character from the show. Does it stop them from playing through the whole game with that character? No. Does that mean it's a good idea to screw people out of all additional traits just to get the full package? No!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasquatic
The problem with trying to make the races too much like what you see on television or in the movies is that the devs run the very real risk of making some races overpowered and others underpowered. By keeping the traits insignificant they have avoided that mess altogether.
That's a distinct possibility, yes, but honestly, it's worth it. There are no races in the show that are just ungodly powerful in every single way that are also playable, they all have drawbacks. Right back to my Gorn and Betazoid example. Both races have some very powerful things about them, but also some very big disadvantages.

The point is, some races should offer you a unique gameplay experience and they simply don't. Sure, the game is a lot easier to balance when you simply say that having Accute Senses does exactly the same thing as being a Telepath, but that doesn't mean people who wanted to play a Telepath will feel that thei're being done justice in any way by having that side of their character represented in that way.

Customization & Balance should not be achieved by making choices meaningless, it should be achieved by making all choices equally desirable in a unique way.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
02-25-2010, 03:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rothnang
Quoting me out of context doesn't prove anything, sorry.
It's not out of context. You've made the point throughout this thread. That the racial traits are not significant.

Which means that the other point you're trying to make ... that aliens are better than everything else ... doesn't hold up. 4 insignificant traits do not outclass 2 insignificant traits. Because they're all insignificant.

In terms of gameplay, this is good. It lets you pick what you like. It adds flavor. And only flavor. It cuts out the min-maxxing of character selection and lets you create the kind of star trek character you want to create rather than being locked in to some race because of its traits.

The system is fine. It allows for more flexibility in terms of roleplaying. And steers clear of creation issues brought on by people who favor crunch over fluff.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
02-25-2010, 03:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rothnang
Quoting me out of context doesn't prove anything, sorry.

The only reason why traits don't matter is because this game is so easy that small bonuses never make the difference, that doesn't mean people are wrong for wanting them. Don't make an argument based on the idea that everyone who wants character customization to be meaningful and pick things that are useful is simply wrong.

Sure, Vulcans are Strong and Logical and can Nerve Pinch and Mind Meld - every single one of those is a trait all by itself, so you have to blow all four traits to even get the baseline for a character equivalent of Spock, and that leaves you with no points to take any other traits. That's just stupid because it robs people of much more useful bonuses just because they want their character to resemble a character from the show. Does it stop them from playing through the whole game with that character? No. Does that mean it's a good idea to screw people out of all additional traits just to get the full package? No!



That's a distinct possibility, yes, but honestly, it's worth it. There are no races in the show that are just ungodly powerful in every single way that are also playable, they all have drawbacks. Right back to my Gorn and Betazoid example. Both races have some very powerful things about them, but also some very big disadvantages.

The point is, some races should offer you a unique gameplay experience and they simply don't. Sure, the game is a lot easier to balance when you simply say that having Accute Senses does exactly the same thing as being a Telepath, but that doesn't mean people who wanted to play a Telepath will feel that thei're being done justice in any way by having that side of their character represented in that way.

Customization & Balance should not be achieved by making choices meaningless, it should be achieved by making all choices equally desirable in a unique way.
A) The bonuses from traits are insignificant not because the game is so easy, but because the math of diminishing returns make them insignificant.

B) Overpowered races are not "worth it".

C) Please try to find a way to code telepathic abilities into a video game and not make them overpowered.

D) Try to recognize that this is a video game played by gamers and not a television program where everything is scripted.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
02-25-2010, 03:22 PM
Ever since beta I have wanted Orions for the feds as an option - and I still do - I wanted the seduce and seduction traits, alot. I made my Romulan-Orion hybrid, partly out of an RP idea I had, and partly as a reason why she doesnt have the iconic Orion-girl traits.

But I agree some of the races and the traits need to be looked at.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
02-25-2010, 03:24 PM
I actually like ground combat, for the sake of seeing my carefully designed crew sometimes and being in enough space missions all over. But still, the traits are way off canon for me, too.

I''m a Ferengi. That should give me a badass advantage against Betazoids and Letheans, in canon, Ferengi are almost completely telepathy/empathy resistent. What am I? Radiation and toxic resistant, and that's it. A slight resistance may be canon, it was mentioned in one DS9 episode. The more distinctive resistance against telepathy/empathy is canon since early TNG.
Having no trade skill, no diplomacy, not even a homeworld for that matter, this resistance is the only thing that really sets Ferengi apart from other species with slight toxic/radiation resistance. Now, I haven't met many Betazoids or Letheans, and a resistance against their racial trait wouldn't be exactly helpful, but it still bothers me.

Why make Ferengi a playable race in the first place if they don't have that one skill they could have in the current system? I know, "trade" and "bribery" or something would take a whole new skill tree, but still...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
02-25-2010, 03:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasquatic
A) The bonuses from traits are insignificant not because the game is so easy, but because the math of diminishing returns make them insignificant.

B) Overpowered races are not "worth it".

C) Please try to find a way to code telepathic abilities into a video game and not make them overpowered.

D) Try to recognize that this is a video game played by gamers and not a television program where everything is scripted.


A) What's your point? If the traits are worthless they should work on that, not say "Yay, stuff doesn't do anything"

B) You're making an argument against a feature based on the assumption that it would be implemented poorly. Saying if it would be done it would automatically be done wrong is no argument for why it's a bad idea, it's just polemic bullcrap.

C) In the same way everything else in the game is not overpowered? Just because an ability is called Telepathy and not Technoblabla-Ray doesn't make it overpowered. Is Rapture which is a standard Lethan trait overpowered simply because it's a Telepathic attack? No. Once again, arguing against a feature based on the assumption that it would be poorly implemented before its even been done yet.

D) The fact that a game needs balance doesn't have to mean that every difference has to be meaningless, things can be different and still be even.


Is a Galaxy class starship more powerful than an Intrepid class starship in the show? Yes, it is. Is a Galaxy class Starship more powerful than an Intrepic class starship in the game? No, thei're both valid choices. Are they both valid choices because their differences absolutely don't matter? No, they have very noticable differences, but are both good in their own right.

It's no difference with designing races in a way so that there is acctually a noticable effect from picking one race over another.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ArievDhien
I''m a Ferengi. That should give me a badass advantage against Betazoids and Letheans, in canon, Ferengi are almost completely telepathy/empathy resistent. What am I? Radiation and toxic resistant, and that's it.
Didn't even know that, since I didn't buy the playable Ferengi, but you're right, Ferengi should be highly resistent to Telepathic attacks and Mind reading because their brains are so unique that telepaths can't really make a connection to them.

Just another way the racial traits fall flat of what they should be.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
02-25-2010, 04:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasquatic
The most common races I have seen (in no particular order) are Human, Vulcan, Borg, Trill and Bajoran. I don't see many aliens. Do you simply notice aliens more frequently because their appearances often make them more visible?
I am currently standing near the Exchange in Ganalda Station, there are exactly three Klingons in the room (including me), one Orion dude (first time I see one), two Nausicaans and... eleven Aliens of various shapes and sizes.

I could log onto one of my Fed characters right now and while I'm sure it wouldn't be "as bad" because Trill, Vulcans and Humans are indeed pretty popular, the fact is that Alien races would still be amongst the majority.

You say that we notice aliens more frequently because their appearances makes them more visible but you should inspect most of the Humans or Vulcans looking character you see ; you'll discover that a good part of them are actually Aliens made to look like a canon race. Why ? Because of traits.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
02-25-2010, 05:14 PM
First of all, a shout to Rothnang ... good to see you around again my friend. Been a while since the War College.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedryn View Post
All 3 of my characters are alien, and I always pick the same 4 traits.

Astrophysicist
Efficient
Techie
Warp Theorist

There is no point, at all, in choosing a trait that is ground based.
Irony of ironies ... those are the same four traits I chose for my Fed Alien I rerolled into as my main. I then built a human appearance for my character and created a backstory saying that she is a sentient android produced by the collaborative research of Doctor Bruce Maddox and Mr. Data.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
02-25-2010, 08:20 PM
Ha, War College veterans come out of the woodwork. Pegasus is also hanging around in this game.

Akwartz, that's something I've also noticed. When people say "But there are so many humans/vulcans/etc. around, if you acctually inspect their characters at least half of them are acctually alien.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
02-26-2010, 01:05 AM
Maybe this is a good place to refer to my half-sober suggestion of a species-based morality "bar".

The basic idea would be to give each species a set of ethics (in best case with a diplomacy skill tree). A high value gives the player certain advantages, a low value naturally disadvantages. This would be different for each species, yet be the same for Fed and KDF Klingon characters. If a Klingon acts like a "real Klingon" - for example, instead of "aid injured crewman" performs "death rite", the bar goes up. In the same situtaion, a Human would act within the species ethics by "scan/aid injured crewman".

This would set the species apart some more and make it more attractive to play them - "alien" could select from a few default ethics that aren't very specific ("warrior", "scientist", "diplomat"...)

The complete suggestion is here:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=126889
Its mainly a result of me being extremly frustratred about the way Ferengi are in this game - besides the looks, there isn't much left of them. It also contains suggestions to make ground combat less boring, so maybe that's the way to take on the issue - most people don't want to waste points on ground skills simply because ground combat is a minor part of the game play and it seems to not pay out to invest in it.
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