Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
02-26-2010, 03:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormianrootsolver View Post
Axterix, there is no good player in this game at the moment, because there isn't even something to measure everything above "total ******" - level.
Sure, there are.

In PvP, you'll find some players are a lot more effective than others. Same deal in PvE, you can see it in things like fleet actions. Or even how easy we can solo stuff. Some people actually have problems with some of the content.

Good players exist. Bad players exist. What there isn't at the moment is much need to be a good player, to find other good players, to succeed.

Quote:
A DP will provide the devs with a tool to finally create meaningful, interesting encounters and will create roles for tanks and healers in this game.
No, it won't. Because this game is casually orientated. So the penalty for dying will be slight. A nuisance, nothing more.

Quote:
Without a DP all you need is DPS... you simply rush in in multiple waves and DPS the enemy down. With a DP you will need a tank to take the aggro, a healer to keep the tank (and of course the other ships) alive and, in the end, also specialized DPS roles.
Also incorrect.

See, what you are talking about here is not a death penalty, but rather, a possibility of failure for the encounter. A death penalty is something like xp debt, a penalty to stats, dead crew you need to go replace.

The ability to fail an encounter, on the other hand, is having everyone die and it resets or you have to wait until next week before you can try again.

These are distinct and separate things.

To put it in WoW terms, the death penalty is the need to pay gold to repair your gear. Inability to rez and continue fighting in the raid (other than by a few powers with harsh cooldowns), that is separate, part of the encounter, not a death penalty. That's why one is referred to as a death penalty and the other as a wipe.

And it is that aspect we need, the ability to fail. But only for group content. The former, however, something like making us run to a starbase to "buy crew"...that's just a silly nuisance that isn't needed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
02-26-2010, 03:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axterix
Again, harder content should be possible to fail. And the players dying could indeed cause failure. Sort of like wiping in a raid means start over. That's good. That, however, is not a death penalty. It is a failure penalty for the content.



The thing is, players often do not know what they want. Many of those saying they want a death penalty don't really care about it, what they really want is a possibility to fail missions. Right now, we've got a lot of missions that are rather silly. Ones where we are supposed to protect some ship. Well, you can go afk and let that ship fight for 14 minutes. And it won't die and you won't fail. That's rather silly.

And some that do actually care have to realize there is no way in a casual orientated MMO that it'll be anywhere near harsh enough to matter.

Death penalties, on the whole, are pointless. They don't make for better players, just a different breed of bad one. And in pretty much every game, the penalty itself is a joke. So, trivial and doesn't make for better players, why bother with it at all?
I believe your right about failing missions. AFAIK it currently is impossble to fail any mission, its only a matter time/dedication till you succeed. So yes failing missions is needed, and i believe it really could be the deciding factor to get more teamwork going.

Though in some ways failing missions is alot worse than any Deathpenalty outside of hardcore games like EvE or darkfall. I mean think about those new groupcontent, 1-2hours into the mission your group wipes, the ship your supposed to safe/protect/destroy/whatever gets away/destroyed, missions fails, better luck next time.

Somehow that would be worse than spawning with low shields/hull/crew instead of full, or having to wait 2 min for a debuff to vanish dont you think? Imho a annoying DP, without serious gameplay ramifications should be used to easy players into ... well dunno how to call it, but im against throwing players suddenly into the cold water.

Maybe one could make it so that in the first groupcontent you cant fail the mission(unless you give up), but dieing is very annoying(travel distance whatever), in the second episode you could fail, but it would be very hard(very tough ally that needs to be kept alive) etc, slowly getting the players used to planning and teamplay.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
02-26-2010, 03:15 AM
Being a rather casual gamer, I don't like the idea of a death penalty, but it seems that a number of people do. Why not try to reach some sort of middle ground. Say for example, make the death penalty an option that could be toggled on or off. That way the hardcore gamers should be happy and so could the casual gamers. The two groups don't really mix, so why impliment a plan tailored to one group apply to all? I don't know, I'm just thinking since I have not heard any details about the proposed death penalty. I do think that it is interesting that before the anouncement there were a few threads demanding a death penalty, but now, after the anouncement there are a large number of threads against the idea.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
02-26-2010, 03:29 AM
If a death penalty is enacted in STO, then they definitely need to fix the Deep Space Encounters so that:

1) You NEVER get sucked into them without saying "Yes"

2) The zone-in spot is ALWAYS safe, so that you do not zone in and immediately get killed.

Also, if you have your Team auto-join turned on, when you zone into a mission and are auto-joined to a team, ALL team members WILL be in the same zone you are in. I don't know how many times I have entered a mission system, get auto-joined to a team, only to find out NONE of the other people are in the same zone, but I am facing an enemy force based on the number of people in the team.

Plus, if several team members quit the mission, there needs to be a way to re-set the mission so that the number of ships you have to fight are commensurate with the current number of active players.

No one wants to be penalized for a Death in a situation they have no control over.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
02-26-2010, 03:32 AM
With crypitic announcing the introduction of a DP we are starting to see glimmers of the game is starting to realise its potential, the difficulty slider amnound other things will now alow those of us who love trek and wish challenging and meaningful game play to immerse ourselves instead of finding the game rather uninspiring and challengeless.

I am glad that reasonable requests won the day although i see that the forum is not being spammed with EMORAGEQUIT posts from certain personality types threatening to boycott the c-store or in some casses quit the game before they have even seen what sort of DP is being introduced, im sure that the adults at cryptic and other adults like myself see these ravings for what they are...the rantings of disapointed children who are having their "immunity" taken away from them.


I am looking forwards to seeing the new patches and the gameplay these changes i hope they will bring even if the minority of less evolved gamers are not.


Kudos cryptic for a step in the right direction.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
02-26-2010, 05:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kor_Dahar_Master View Post

I am glad that reasonable requests won the day although i see that the forum is not being spammed with EMORAGEQUIT posts from certain personality types threatening to boycott the c-store or in some casses quit the game before they have even seen what sort of DP is being introduced, im sure that the adults at cryptic and other adults like myself see these ravings for what they are...the rantings of disapointed children who are having their "immunity" taken away from them.
.
You are not exactly supporting your assertion that you are an 'adult' by acting like the very thing you describe as the opposite (see above quote).

If you were truly being mature about the matter you would have left the puerile name-calling out of it. Please do so, I'm not keen on having my thread filled with that garbage. Thanks.

The fact of the matter is, a very large portion of players are disturbed by the announcement accompanied by no attempt to garnish some sort of input about the decision from the player base through the recent survey.

I myself would like to know more about what led them to the decision. That's really the only reason I asked. Simply curiosity.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
02-26-2010, 05:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axterix
And it is that aspect we need, the ability to fail. But only for group content. The former, however, something like making us run to a starbase to "buy crew"...that's just a silly nuisance that isn't needed.
Ok, agreed. In fact, I fully agree that all that is needed is the possibility to wipe, an additional DP is optional and not really necessary.

I'd say that the "chapter" of the mission should fully restart in case of death / wipe. And PLEASE no respawns during an ongoing encounter. Otherwise there will be zerging - and zerging is a content disabler.

At the moment, however, there is no necessity to have ANY skill (besides being able to hit [Spacebar] fast enough) because dying means "shoulder shrugging and zerging in again", 200 times if necessary.

"Spit on the boss often enough and he will drown in saliva" - gameplay. A sad thing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
02-26-2010, 05:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitaku View Post
I'm starting to think they did it to simply give us an illusion that they care. Lets hope I'm wrong.
We may disagree on whether a DP is needed, but in this regard I'm right there with you. I'm getting a distinct "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining" vibe from all this.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
02-26-2010, 05:28 AM
The truth is the only place that players really want a death a penalty is PvP. There is always a certain need for players to feel that they have inconvienced the enemy in PvP in some way.

Sadly, the clammering for a death penalty WILL be mis-interpreted and we'll get it for PvE instead. Which will only serve to make the PvE missions seem to drag on when we auto-joined into a group and someone gets focus fired on by 10+ ships.

Some may think that I'm speculating here, but this comes from a lot of past experiences with MMO's. Players rarely state what they really want, because mostly what they really want is to be the biggest BA on the block and laugh meniacally at the poor noobs that don't stand a chance against them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
02-26-2010, 09:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nybris
The truth is the only place that players really want a death a penalty is PvP. There is always a certain need for players to feel that they have inconvienced the enemy in PvP in some way.
@Nybris: I'm not sure that's entirely correct, as far as a blanket statement... could be true in some instances.

Anyhow,

Most seem to think that a death penalty will magically make this a whole new game on both fronts. Of course, to people with a little bit of common sense that is so much hogwash.

They've either got to fix a whole heck of a lot of mechanics currently in the game before they implement a death penalty, or it will be a complete disaster and the player base will melt down and evaporate.

Also, we don't even have any idea of a workable time frame. For all we know this 'death penalty' could be 3 months off, 6 months, or a year before it makes any appearance. It could be tomorrow, they didn't give any specifics... in fact it was so vague that I'm of a mind it's not something they have sorted out at all.
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