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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Updated to add bold on the key points. The rest of it consists of examples and explanation to back up the points. For those who were not in the mood to read the whole thing, just read the bold... better than nothing.

Dear Cryptic,

There are no BOs with Scramble Sensors III or High Yield Torpedo III. I've looked at every BO on the exchange multiple days now, and never seen a BO with these powers. I'm sure there are some other skills that are also impossible to find. Meanwhile, you have literally hundreds of BOs with other III-level skills that sell for as low as 500 credits (even for "rare" ones, which honestly, are not rare at all, but that's another issue).

It would really be nice if you would fix this, or enable the ability for players to train BOs outside of their Officer class.

I think you should enable the ability for anyone with 9 ranks in a skill to train BOs in that skill. Many of us spent a lot of skill points to gain 9 ranks, since the skill description promises the ability to train BOs in that skill. Then, once we got to 9 ranks, we found we could not train BOs in the skill. From a role-playing standpoint, prohibiting this makes very little sense, because if a character is a master in a particular skill, then why should they be prohibited from teaching that same skill to an officer of the same class as the skill?

Frankly, if you're going to allow people to essentially multi-class (to an extent) by letting them spend their skill points up to level 9 in things outside their class, and buy ships outside their class, then I don't see how it would upset the balance to make good on the promise told by the skill description itself and let players train their hard-earned BOs in the III-level skills that are outside their Officer's class. It's not like this would affect space combat balance very much since in order to use those level-III skills, players already have to be in a ship that's outside their class.

Perhaps you should change the limitation to this: in order to train BOs in level-III skills outside your own class, you have to have to set your current ship to one that matches the class of that skill. For instance, as an Engineer, if I wanted to train a BO in High Yield Torpedoes III, then I would have to own an Escort (perhaps require the ship to be Tier 3 or higher) and set it as my current ship. It only makes sense from a role-playing perspective that a Captain could not train an officer in a skill without at least having access to the type of ship that skill can be used on (presuming that training would require actual hands-on interaction between the captain and the BO).

There's no logical reason why an Engineering Officer should not be able to train someone in High Yield Torpedo III if they themselves have invested the 9 skill points into Torpedos and the skill description tells the player that if they do this, and they spent the credits/voucher to buy a Heavy Escort.

Again, I really don't think this would upset the game balance, because I don't think that most of these skills give too much of an increase in power over their II-level versions. Am I wrong? Would it really make the game unbalanced to allow Engineers and Science Officers to train people in High Yield Torpedoes III, which they can only use in Escort ships anyway (with the exception of Admirals, in which case presumably they still have to have the Tactical-leaning version of the Tier 5 ship)?

Personally I feel Cryptic owes this to us simply based on the fact that the in-game descriptions promise it. Sure, I've heard people say, "It's an error in the description." However, if that's the case, then why the heck haven't they fixed this error in any of the updates? This issue has existed since open beta, has it not? What is stopping them from editing a few descriptions? What would it take, 5 seconds to type it into grep search and replace? They've had their chance to fix the skill description, but instead they have chosen to neglect this issue and let player after player find it out "the hard way." To me, that means that they owe the players to update the actual game in the way I suggest above, since it's by their own neglect, lack of an adequate user manual, and inaccurate online documentation for the game that this issue exists. Just fixing the documentation will not un-spend all the skill-points people have wasted to find this out "the hard way."

Someone might say that if/when they offer a re-spec, that will be an adequate solution, but I am pretty doubtful. For one thing, although I think they should offer the re-spec for free, I suspect that Cryptic will make the re-spec cost a lot of game credits or even Cryptic Points, or associate some other form of penalty with it to prevent people from constantly re-speccing before every battle or mission. I will be ****ed if, after creating a game bug and neglecting to fix it, then Cryptic charges anything (especially real money!) for the fix.

Even if they are going to allow one free re-spec per character, that would still not be an adequate solution to the problem of BO training being limited to your Captain's class.

For one thing, even if I reassign my character's skill points, I still won't be able to get High Yield Torpedo III, which makes the Tactical BO slots on my Heavy Escort worth a lot less, and makes the points that I do spend in Torpedoes not count for as much. Engineers are already limited enough when flying an Escort without having Attack Pattern Alpha -- I don't think we need to be denied having High Yield Torpedo III as well. The same thing applies for me flying a Tier 3 or 4 science ship as it regards Scramble Sensors III, for instance.

For another thing, some players may have even chosen their character's class, race, and/or traits based on the assumption that they would be able to train BOs in a skill outside their class, but it seems unlikely that Cryptic will extend re-speccing to include race/traits/class. In other words, re-speccing won't be a solution to the class limitation of BO training because re-speccing your character still won't allow players to train BOs in those skills that they want to train them in, and thought they would be able to train them in as the character they originally chose, based on the incorrect game documentation. For instance, lets say someone created a Liberated Borg Tactical Officer with Warp Theorist and Efficiency, thinking that they would be able to train a BO in Emergency Power to (Anything) III (since the tooltip says so). Then after maxing out an Efficiency skill, after several weeks of playing, they found out they could not train a BO in that. Perhaps this would cause them to no longer want the traits, race, or even class that they originally chose.

I realize that hypothetical example is, perhaps, a stretch, but in all honesty I think there probably is someone out there that this would apply to, even if they never read these forums and will never speak up on their own behalf. Regardless of however unlikely any of us assume that scenario may be, we don't have any real proof that it's uncommon. The fact remains that the BO training limitation decreases the usefulness of traits that people may have chosen (such as Accuracy, in the case of an Engineering officer) that primarily benefit skills their class cannot train.

Therefore, a re-spec is no solution unless it allows players to completely recreate their characters from the ground up, and to do so for free (least for the first time) -- but I would be quite surprised if Cryptic ever offered this option, since it would unbalance the game and take things too far the wrong direction.

On the face of it, a re-spec would seem to be a good solution. Someone who has their heart set on High Yield Torpedo III, due to how they have discovered they prefer to fight, or due to the rare items they happened to receive and which are now bound to their character, has every reason to want to train a BO in HYT III. A re-spec that only affects skill points will not solve this problem for them -- it will not un-purchase items that they may have purchased due to the false tooltip. It will not let the change a trait they chose due to the false tooltip. A free re-spec that allowed players to select an entirely different class would allow players to train BOs in two classes of skills, which is all they can ever hope to use with an Admiral-level ship anyway -- before re-speccing their character they could train their existing BOs in skills they would lose the ability to train after changing classes.

That would be a decent solution, if it wasn't for the fact that having a repeatable class/skill re-spec (even if it costed money) would allow people to have BOs with every III-level skills. Making the additional re-specs cost money would only further unbalance things since rich players would be able to have even more ridiculous advantages that normal players wouldn't have access to (they already can buy credits and equip their ships with the best of every item). A repeatable class/skill re-spec would enable people to train BOs with currently unobtainable III-level skills in each class. Every time they re-specced, they could train a BO in a level III skill enabled by that re-spec, then rinse & repeat for all the III-level skills from each class they wanted. This would unbalance ground combat since in space, the ship limits you to only having one class of III-level skills available, whereas on the ground you can use any and all III-level skills.

Now, it could be a decent solution if only the first re-spec allowed the player to change their class, although even this seems like something I doubt Cryptic would ever do. I do think it would be cool if re-specs would always allow players to change the race and traits, since the lack of adequate game documentation means we have to simply test things by trial-and-error, and allowing this would not unbalance anything. To me, the other beauty of re-speccing is that it lets you not waste the time you invested in the game, since those of us with full-time jobs don't have time to level up multiple chars, and enabling at least one free total re-spec, and then repeatable class/trait/skill re-specs for a fee, would be really nice, and would be a decent solution to this problem.

However, after suggesting a re-spec feature that's anything other than a simple skill re-spec, I can already hear the bawwwing... I can already see the pitchforks, torches, and protest sign carriers taking up positions on my e-lawn. Have at it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
02-28-2010, 03:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeraphAntilles
There are no BOs with Scramble Sensors III or High Yield Torpedo III. I've looked at every BO on the exchange multiple days now, and never seen a BO with these powers. .
Hi there OP.

You need to look at your character's ability tree a little more closely.

Put nine points into the proper torpedo skill, and you are granted the ability to train any of your tactical bridge officers torpedo high yield III.

If you want Scramble Sensors III, you need to put nine points into the right starship Ops power on your own character, which you can then teach for free to any science bridge officer.

Hope this helps.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
02-28-2010, 03:48 PM
The issue is that those skills can only be taught if they are in the same class as you (tac captain can train HY3, but not FBP3, you have to be science captain to train BOff that).

Hopefully they will change it so anyone can, but current it's just poorly worded (or I think it's the NPC and not tooltip that stats it you have to be a certain class)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
02-28-2010, 03:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enignite View Post
The issue is that those skills can only be taught if they are in the same class as you (tac captain can train HY3, but not FBP3, you have to be science captain to train BOff that).

Hopefully they will change it so anyone can, but current it's just poorly worded (or I think it's the NPC and not tooltip that stats it you have to be a certain class)
There's more to it than that.
Most of the level III powers are for a lieutenant commander console station.
Outside of your chosen class' vessel type, no ship will have anything more than an LT station in the class that you are not.

For example, even if you get a great level III Science skill to train a BO, you won't get to use it in any ship if you are a tactical officer or an Engineer unless you are in a science ship.

Same goes for the other two classes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
02-28-2010, 05:08 PM
I was mistaken, Rapid Fire II and Scramble II...

The IIIs were beam overload, vm and some other things.

My bad
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
02-28-2010, 07:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by denare View Post
Hi there OP.

You need to look at your character's ability tree a little more closely.

Put nine points into the proper torpedo skill, and you are granted the ability to train any of your tactical bridge officers torpedo high yield III.

If you want Scramble Sensors III, you need to put nine points into the right starship Ops power on your own character, which you can then teach for free to any science bridge officer.

Hope this helps.
Hi there to you too.

You're just making my argument for me... because even though you're wrong, you believe it anyway because when you click on the Sensor Probes skill in the Skills tab of the Character Status window, it says "Learning all nine ranks unlocks the skill to train officers Scramble Sensors III." That's why Cryptic needs to fix this issue; even people who post on the forums a lot, like yourself, don't even know this and are bound to pick the wrong class, wrong race, wrong trait, and wrong skills based on the notion of creating a character around being able to train a certain skill, only to later discover they were deceived.

Now, I don't blame you for this because naturally, you would assume that whatever it says in the skill description is accurate. I once believed as you do, until I saw the true reality and actually tried to train a BO in High Yield Torpedoes III, and then I discovered it was not possible for me because I'm an Engineer. Great. I also do not have the ability to train Scramble Sensors III even though I have 9 ranks in it, and have a Tier 4 Science ship.

Or are you actually claiming that your character does have the ability to train BOs in skills outside their character class? Because if that's what you're suggesting, then, "pics or it didn't happen."

Quote:
There's more to it than that.
Most of the level III powers are for a lieutenant commander console station.
Outside of your chosen class' vessel type, no ship will have anything more than an LT station in the class that you are not.

For example, even if you get a great level III Science skill to train a BO, you won't get to use it in any ship if you are a tactical officer or an Engineer unless you are in a science ship.

Same goes for the other two classes.
OK, either (a) you didn't read my post (which wouldn't surprise me, given that it was way too long), (b) you're an idiot, or (c) you're just trolling me. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and go with (a). My bad, for not providing a courteous tl;dr. So here we go.

tl;dr: My char is an engineer and I fly a Tier 4 science ship and have 9 ranks in Sensor Probes. Yet, I cannot train any BOs in Scramble Sensors III. Cryptic plz fix for all, tyty

To quote myself:
Quote:
There's no logical reason why an Engineering Officer should not be able to train someone in High Yield Torpedo III if they themselves have invested the 9 skill points into Torpedos and the skill description tells the player that if they do this, and they spent the credits/voucher to buy a Heavy Escort.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
02-28-2010, 08:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeraphAntilles
Hi there to you too.

You're just making my argument for me... because even though you're wrong, you believe it anyway because when you click on the Sensor Probes skill in the Skills tab of the Character Status window, it says "Learning all nine ranks unlocks the skill to train officers Scramble Sensors III." That's why Cryptic needs to fix this issue; even people who post on the forums a lot, like yourself, don't even know this and are bound to pick the wrong class, wrong race, wrong trait, and wrong skills based on the notion of creating a character around being able to train a certain skill, only to later discover they were deceived.

Now, I don't blame you for this because naturally, you would assume that whatever it says in the skill description is accurate. I once believed as you do, until I saw the true reality and actually tried to train a BO in High Yield Torpedoes III, and then I discovered it was not possible for me because I'm an Engineer. Great. I also do not have the ability to train Scramble Sensors III even though I have 9 ranks in it, and have a Tier 4 Science ship.

Or are you actually claiming that your character does have the ability to train BOs in skills outside their character class? Because if that's what you're suggesting, then, "pics or it didn't happen."



OK, either (a) you didn't read my post (which wouldn't surprise me, given that it was way too long), (b) you're an idiot, or (c) you're just trolling me. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and go with (a). My bad, for not providing a courteous tl;dr. So here we go.

tl;dr: My char is an engineer and I fly a Tier 4 science ship and have 9 ranks in Sensor Probes. Yet, I cannot train any BOs in Scramble Sensors III. Cryptic plz fix for all, tyty

To quote myself:
Have you been to passiveagressivenotes.com?
I could have sworn I've seen that writing style there. Where you quite blatantly mean to offend, but hide it behind a passive tone.

Also, you said you have an engineer in a science vessel and are trying to teach someone science skills. An engineer does not a scientist make. For as much research as you clearly have done, you might've missed that fatal flaw in your plan.

Anyway, if you can't put someone at a required station in the ship to use the ability, then you can't use the ability, even if you've trained for it. That's just how it is. It wasn't my design decision, I have no idea why you felt the need to attack me for it.

I was actually trying to help, for what it's worth.
If I wanted to troll you, I could've forcefully removed you from your tall equine and commented on the painful amount of irritation you have in an unmentionable orifice, but I appear to have lost my monocle, and my three piece suit is being cleaned and pressed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
02-28-2010, 08:12 PM
Also let me reiterate something that may have gotten lost in all this:

NONE of the BOs that you get as awards for leveling up EVER have High Yield Torpedoes III, Scramble Sensors III, or several others as well. Why?

PLEASE FIX THANKS
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
02-28-2010, 08:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by denare View Post
Have you been to passiveagressivenotes.com?
I could have sworn I've seen that writing style there. Where you quite blatantly mean to offend, but hide it behind a passive tone.

Also, you said you have an engineer in a science vessel and are trying to teach someone science skills. An engineer does not a scientist make. For as much research as you clearly have done, you might've missed that fatal flaw in your plan.

Anyway, if you can't put someone at a required station in the ship to use the ability, then you can't use the ability, even if you've trained for it. That's just how it is. It wasn't my design decision, I have no idea why you felt the need to attack me for it.

I was actually trying to help, for what it's worth.
If I wanted to troll you, I could've forcefully removed you from your tall equine and commented on the painful amount of irritation you have in an unmentionable orifice, but I appear to have lost my monocle, and my three piece suit is being cleaned and pressed.
OK, sorry if I was snarky. But I mean, even after being called out for not reading the original post, you still didn't go back and read it. I'm not attacking you, sorry if you felt attacked... but in case you were not aware, this is the Feedback area, which means it's where players post their feedback on the game design decisions (especially when they have a problem with it), which is exactly what I'm doing.

So, for you to come in here, post false information, not read my post, and then when I call you out on it, claim that I'm attacking you for the Cryptic's design decisions, about which you say "That's just how it is" (as if this wasn't the Feedback area, and as if it wasn't a software program which receives regular updates that are informed by player feedback), is not very, uh, helpful. Look I don't want to be mean, but like, yeah, don't keep doing it, please.

I already said numerous times in that BOs who are not the same class as your character cannot be trained by your character. That is the crux of the problem which I spent many paragraphs discussing above. Please read my original post before responding further... if that's not too much to ask....

I mean, seriously man, I don't know an easy way to say this, but please don't respond to posts you haven't even read, then get all offended when you get called out on it. Seriously.

But anyway, to address your points, science and engineering are pretty interrelated fields of study, to be honest. Data and Geordi were best friends, and often taught each other things and worked on problem-solving together. Are you trying to tell me that if Geordi became a captain, and mastered the use of tractor beams, then he couldn't teach Data how to employ tractor beams at the highest level? That only if he had begun his Starfleet career as a science officer would he be able to do so? If that's your argument, then why?

I mean, we're not talking about an engineer making someone into a scientist, as you suggest. I never said anything to that effect.

We're talking about a character with 9 ranks in Sensor Probes being able to train a Science Bridge Officer in Scramble Sensors III, like the game says they will be able to upon obtaining those 9 ranks. Now, call it "poorly worded tooltip text" if you want to, but like I said, why haven't they reworded it by now? This text continues to cause issues for players, and due to the obvious lack of an alternate means of obtaining a BO with certain skills like High Yield Torpedoes III, then I feel Cryptic should update the game software to allow training outside of ones class.

As for your discussion of starship BO slots, on my current ship, which is a Tier 4 science ship, even though my character is an Engineer, I have a Science BO slot that has Commander, Lieutenant Commander, Lieutenant, and Ensign skills available. I am able to use Commander and LC skills from whatever BO I put in that slot; I routinely use Viral Matrix III etc. I'm just not able to train those BOs myself in science skills, which makes no sense and should be changed.

Many other players agree with me on this one. I haven't really heard anyone saying they like this limitation.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
02-28-2010, 09:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeraphAntilles
I already said numerous times in that BOs who are not the same class as your character cannot be trained by your character. That is the crux of the problem which I spent many paragraphs discussing above. Please read my original post before responding further... if that's not too much to ask....
.

Circular logic.
We both understand this phenomenon of not being able to train outside of your profession
Why do you feel the need to restate your case over and over if you are not being offensive?
I don't know how many scientists it takes to install an engine, but boy howdy it's probably a lot.
Clearly there is a wall here, and neither of us are getting anywhere with our discussion spoons.
What we chiefly need good sir, are jackhammers.
Yes, you heard me right.
Jackhammers.
For which to pound through the wall of arrogance that you have erected to mightly around yourself.
It's okay to be wrong you know. You might want to try it sometime, before that pedestal of yours that you have sat upon comes crashing down.

Good sir, it is within reason to state someone's case objectively without name calling, or harrasment of any kind. I would appreciate some semblance of courtesy in our future endeavors.
Henceforth, I shall remind myself to steer clear of you in the forums, lest I get the 4 horsemen of apocalypse thrashed down upon me like so many stinging angry bees, and I good sir, am alergic to bees.
Plus I don't like death. It's just not me, y'know?

Also, had you taken the time to remove your head from your arse, you'd have noticed someone kindly offered to give you the bridge officers you so desperately want quite awhile ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiffe View Post
I've gotten some blue bridge officers that have those skills already. PM me if you want one or two, I have a ton sitting in my mail that I don't plan on using.

(to the OP)
For someone touting reading comprehension, you lack it.
But please, continue validating yourself by degrading people TRYING TO HELP YOU.
Jesus H Christ...
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