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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
03-04-2010, 12:44 PM
The issue for me is simply that instead of making a complex ship combat system that would be similar to to actual Trek cannon, they elected to go WoW clone. Granted its not the same as WoW, but in general its the same old thing.

The problem with Wow's success is developers now think they can't really innovate anything because "the wheel" has already been invented. MMO players reinforce this small-think by constantly demanding mechanics that are the same as what they are familiar with.

I mean come on people you cant even boost your forward shields in this game.

In the music industry we call this the "Britney Spears effect". Something does well then everything ends up sounding like it. Regardless if its crap or not.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
03-04-2010, 12:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleriel
If they changed the BO abilities to be passive instead of active abilities... it might be more StarTrek-y. especially in space.

aside from a few special abilities like tractor beam, emergency power to shields/weapons/auxilliary/structure, maximum yield torpedo, beam overload/rapid fire, attack patterns, mine dispersal, directed modulation etc. etc.

the rest could be turned into passive defensive or offensive abilities that either augment a certain part of your ship, like shields and armor-resistances, sensor-strength (range not least of all), weapons (range, power, cooldown, duration of beams etc.).
Sure, you could say that we have ship consoles for that now to a certain degree.
but this would be another level of customization. activated abilities would give more, but they're short burst abilities. while passive abilities would be 'on' all the time.

as for ground combat... it's difficult to turn what you see in the movies and series into a game...
one-shot-kill works on the big and small screen, but if you're on the receiving end of it ... it's another matter.
but, cryptic could do with playing some of the old Star Trek games to see how they solved it.

I agree. It would be nice if you had specialists that had the innate ability to counter computer hacking (like VM). And to be honest, I wish Tactor Beams were available to all ships, because all ships came with them.

And I wouldn't mind expose / expoit kills if it was really, really rare occurances than common usage that it is.

In fact, I sort of like the SWG model where you have to give them the final blow in order to kill them. So Federation players could give the illusion they stunned Klingons, while Klingons can kill at will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheIgmo
The Sensor Jamming and VM can BOTH be remedied by using Science Team, though I hear that there may be a bug that keeps Science Team from preventing further debuffs during the time it is active. Currently Subnucleonic Beam has no effective defense other than a team that keeps you healed up while it is active.

Edit:
Also, maybe my memory is failing me, but I seem to remember getting 1-shot killed by certain spells in ****.
Yes, Sensor Jamming and VM can be fixed with Science Team. To be honest, I'm happy Sensor Jamming is included. But VM with SNB, Science Team pops, but you try clicking, it doesn't work. Some people actually abuse this with delay by spamming jamming and then you use Science Team, and then become vulnerable.

As for ****, I doubt you go 1 shotted, but had the perception you was. MMOs are funny that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamz
I agree in the sense that I was hoping ship combat would be more intricate and slower paced. More "Star Fleet Battles" tabletop wargame and less arcade game shoot-em-up.

Still, the combat is more intricate than EVE. EVE didn't have shield facings at all and didn't really even have combat powers or free flying ships in the sense that STO does.

But it could have been so much more. We could have intricate power management systems, system damage (not just weapons being disabled but like torpedo tube #3 has been damaged and you've basically got the engineering team in there banging on it with hammers trying to get it firing again).

Of course, I have no idea if that would be more or less popular than the arcade shoot-em-up we have now.


Ground combat would probably be better as an FPS but that's a whole new can of worms for an MMORPG to handle.
That would be a fun thing if Cryptic could implement it. The Star Trek 5 Game, Bridge Commander, the Academy games, and some others had component repairs that really added to the emersion of tactical combat. Like do you focus on the warp core or do you take out the weapons first.

In a funny way, this goes with item decay. And would give more of a Trek Feeling. Beats the temporary loss of systems.


As for Ground PvP, things would be completely different if it was Open Zone PvP than Arena PvP. That's where survival skills really come into play and really show what skills are overpowered or not.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
03-04-2010, 12:52 PM
I think this is a good thread, but it may need to be separated between Ground Combat Mechanics and Space Combat mechanics.

The Ground Combat I find fine in STO.

The Space combat I agree with OP could be made more Offense, Defense centric rather than Special Ability centric.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
03-04-2010, 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
Funny, I don't recall 1 shot kills in SWG or ****. .
You dont remember who ever hit their one shot cc first in **** for all intents and purposes had a one shot kill? You dont remember that all rvr came down to who got cc off first won? No matter the character types, builds, equipment or numbers?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
03-04-2010, 03:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
Funny, I don't recall 1 shot kills in SWG or ****. Everquest had them, but eventually nerfed them, for player balancing.

But yes, Cryptic didn't listen to the Beta Testers.



EQ, EQ2, ****, SWG, and now STO.

The only Resists you got are your Shields and Armor, but what about protection against SNB, Jamming, or Viral Matrix? Omega and Teams aren't good enough, due to stacking.
SWG:

TIE Oppressor with dual RE10 guns on WO4 with EWeapons = dead single player ship

Advanced XWing/Krayt/Rikhxyrk with 3 Borstels on WO4 = dead single player ship 90% of the time

Any Freelance ship using EPulse 3 could instapop *all* ships within 5 km before they nerfed it

TIE Oppressor/Decimator/Nova with 3 IR2, PT3 or PT4 (or better) missiles can oneshot any single player ship

Any ship with Spacebomb II can oneshot any other single player ship
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
03-04-2010, 03:51 PM
I think the Eng Turrets are really cheesy. My son likes them. I didn't care for them in Warhammer either.

The spamming hold and exploits in Ground is getting really silly to the point I dislike it even more. Not being able to do anything over and over and over is not fun. You would think that the smart BG that I am, I would not fall victim to the same attack again and again and again.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
03-04-2010, 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
SWG:

TIE Oppressor with dual RE10 guns on WO4 with EWeapons = dead single player ship

Advanced XWing/Krayt/Rikhxyrk with 3 Borstels on WO4 = dead single player ship 90% of the time

Any Freelance ship using EPulse 3 could instapop *all* ships within 5 km before they nerfed it

TIE Oppressor/Decimator/Nova with 3 IR2, PT3 or PT4 (or better) missiles can oneshot any single player ship

Any ship with Spacebomb II can oneshot any other single player ship
Yes and in RL a sidewinder from a jet Fighter can one shot any other jet Fighter...this has nothing to do with Starship Combat however.

A WWII battleship cannot one shot another WWII battleship.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
03-04-2010, 04:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
What happened to the Star Trek we saw on TV and in the Movies? Seems STO has strayed greatly from the Universe Gene Roddenberry created for us over 40 years ago.

Ground Battles: Spam Expose Abilities until Exploits and Vaporize the enemy in a quick kill.

Lets see some classic MMO class difference, not all them lumped up together doing the same fighting. After all, clerics were never on the front lines, they were in the back as support. Wizards favored magic over meleeing. STO should be the same.

Tactical Officers: They supposed to be the Ground Forces / Security. They are trained for fighting. Let them handle it.

Science Officers: They supposed to be the Healers, not fighters.

Engineers: Sure we saw Data, Geordi, and O'Brian fight, but they weren't the mainstay fighters. And they surely didn't spam a bunch of different constructions in combat either, either. :p

Space Battles: Spam Science Abilities to overwhelm your opponent, so they lose control of their ship for an easy kill.

This isn't Star Trek, even in the 25th Century. I for one would love to return to the simple Trek Battles of Phasers, Disruptors, Torpedoes, and Tractor Beams; Not the Abuse Trek that STO has become.
Lots of redshirts got vaproized in TOS and Kirk disentergrated a klingon in Search for Spock. You have the option of playing STO your way, even to the point of arming your team the way you wish. Your away team can be all stun phasers and no personal shields, if you wish.

As for arguements on Rodenberry's vision, it varied. Checkov had a Beetles haircut cause it was hoped it would sell younger viewers. Kirk's shirt ripped a lot to the same effect. The Gorn, Romulans and Klingon's were factions in a cold war that went hot from time to time.

I respect your veiwpoint. I don't agree with it and I don't thinl it would make a very good MMORPG though.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
03-04-2010, 06:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Santroff View Post
So.. you basically want Cryptic to re-release the only Star Trek: The Next Generation game that came out on Super Nintendo?

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1...past_super.jpg

Somehow I don't think that is going to fly in a corporate meeting. And anyone who has actually played the game will probably agree that what you have just described is fun for maybe 10 minutes.

Sorry, I don't mean to flame, but its one of those ideas that sounds good in theory but fails in practice.
I LOVED that game.

I like this game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
03-05-2010, 03:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
What happened to the Star Trek we saw on TV and in the Movies? Seems STO has strayed greatly from the Universe Gene Roddenberry created for us over 40 years ago.

Ground Battles: Spam Expose Abilities until Exploits and Vaporize the enemy in a quick kill.

Lets see some classic MMO class difference, not all them lumped up together doing the same fighting. After all, clerics were never on the front lines, they were in the back as support. Wizards favored magic over meleeing. STO should be the same.


Tactical Officers: They supposed to be the Ground Forces / Security. They are trained for fighting. Let them handle it.

Science Officers: They supposed to be the Healers, not fighters.

Engineers: Sure we saw Data, Geordi, and O'Brian fight, but they weren't the mainstay fighters. And they surely didn't spam a bunch of different constructions in combat either, either. :p



Space Battles: Spam Science Abilities to overwhelm your opponent, so they lose control of their ship for an easy kill.

This isn't Star Trek, even in the 25th Century. I for one would love to return to the simple Trek Battles of Phasers, Disruptors, Torpedoes, and Tractor Beams; Not the Abuse Trek that STO has become.
So to take make it more like star trek we have to make it more like things that aren't Star Trek. We should look at clerics and wizards as our inspiration? Not sure I get this.
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