Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Cloak Balance
03-05-2010, 03:22 AM
I love cloak. (the mechanic and audio/visual effect; brilliant work, its just like the movies!)
I love hit and run style tactics for Klingon's, its both fun and fits the Star Trek cannon.

Problem: Currently, cloak and battle cloak have caused a balance issue.
-Cloak is infinite and has no significant drawback (the tools to discover cloaked enemies have short ranges and are therefore ineffective at finding cloaked ships unless you already know exactly there they are)
-Federation players will continue to "ball up" at the initial spawn point in Cracked Planetoid until they are given the tools to EFFECTIVELY seek out cloaked ships.

Possible balancing fixes: (choose one or two, not all)
-Buff Sensor Probes ability? (greater range or faster cool-down? Make available to all Fed ships, not just science?)
-Allow cloaked players to be visible on the minimap (its a bug right? but it does help to balance the game... maybe too much actually)
-Remove the ability to use Full Impulse and Cloak simultaneously
-GIve cloak/battle cloak x time limit (maybe between 30 seconds and 2 minutes for example) and then require a player to become briefly visible again for y seconds before returning to standard cloak.
-Remove the instant de-cloaking effect of cloak searching abilities, like Sensor Probes. Instead allow the cloaked klingon ship to become barely visible to the Federation player who used sensor probes so that the cloaked klingon ship can be targeted while its shields are still down if the Klingon captain does not order his ship to de-cloak. This both fits the cannon of Star Trek and creates an exploit for Federation captains to take advantage of, and klingon captains to protect.

Currently Klingon ships have slightly less crew and hull hit points than their Federation counterparts, and using cloak brings down their shields.

Shields on a cloaked vessel don't stay down when it becomes visible (not long enough to matter), and all Federation tools for finding cloaked ships make the cloaked ship visible in the process. Crew and hull is a much better downside to cloak, but its currently not drastic enough to balance the advantages of cloaking.
Federation and Klingon captains have precisely identical skills, Klingons simply have the advantage of using them in a guaranteed first strike, and combining their rotation of skills with battle cloak.

Remind me of what Federation ships get which balances these Klingon advantages...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
03-05-2010, 03:27 AM
Dude.. at ra5 I can see klingons at 12km+ distance.. come on , why everyone keeps talking about cloak being OP.............. I think its very weak in fact.. I spot them then kill them aux and they cannot help there group anymore... poor things.

edit: the minimap thing must of course be a bug, a big one.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
03-05-2010, 03:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uth
Lets not forget the advantages which are exclusive to klingons besides cloak: carriers, and unassigned bridge posts for officers on the bird of prey class ships.

Remind me of what Federation ships get to balance these Klingon advantages...
Oh right ... carriers are klingon "advantage". Carriers have no cloak; cant turn efficiently (try flying one), have less shields than fed cruisers, their spawn fighters die in a couple hits; are vulnerable to scramble sensors; etc... so i don't see how you can consider it an advantage as they have many downsides compared to other ships in the game; their only benefit is to have pets, which are not even controllable and die in a few seconds.

Universal stations; only for birds of prey. Which are the ships with the lowest shields/structure you can find in STO. Also; they seem to have less stations than other ships to compensate for that versatility.

So call these advantages if you want; they both carry significant disadvantages as well. That doesnt make them "advantages" for the klingon; they make klingons different from federation.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
03-05-2010, 03:49 AM
"Different" is good, "unbalanced" is bad.

I am saying that the current cloak ability is unbalanced due to its infinite nature.

One evidence for this is the Cracked Planetoid situation, where Federation teams have one decent strategy... the Fed Ball. BOTH sides hate the vanilla strategy. Lets add some flavor by giving the Feds something to do instead of sitting around waiting for the Klings, and lets give the klings some interesting targets instead of the constant Federation brick wall.

As a Fed player I want to see a change to cloak which makes game play more enjoyable for all subscribers. I do NOT want to see a nerf to Klingons just because they are my opponent.

My win/loss record has no problem with the current "imbalance." My enjoyment of the game based on the variety of strategies and tactics is lower because of the way cloak works. I think the majority of both factions actually agree.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
03-05-2010, 04:10 AM
If you give feds the ability to actively hunt down cloaked ships as a individual ability, science ships will own BOP"s I think it will be detrimental to PVP as it stands
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
03-05-2010, 04:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uth
"Different" is good, "unbalanced" is bad.

I am saying that the current cloak ability is unbalanced due to its infinite nature.

One evidence for this is the Cracked Planetoid situation, where Federation teams have one decent strategy... the Fed Ball. BOTH sides hate the vanilla strategy. Lets add some flavor by giving the Feds something to do instead of sitting around waiting for the Klings, and lets give the klings some interesting targets instead of the constant Federation brick wall.

As a Fed player I want to see a change to cloak which makes game play more enjoyable for all subscribers. I do NOT want to see a nerf to Klingons just because they are my opponent.

My win/loss record has no problem with the current "imbalance." My enjoyment of the game based on the variety of strategies and tactics is lower because of the way cloak works. I think the majority of both factions actually agree.
Actually, the times I have problems fighting Feds are not when they ball up, but rather when they actively try to disrupt the Klingon planning, more than once have I or one of my team been pulled out of cloak before we are ready (and yes, on occasion at 10-12k range)

Dont forget that if a Klingon first strike can be effective, the ships need to be a lot closer than 10k, usually we either decloak at 5-6k range or have one of our ships decloak farther out than 10k, in order to draw agro.. If we need to be close to make an effective strike, and your anticloaking abilities exceed this range, then the problem cant be the cloak, but rather the failure to scan effectively on the Feds part.

Id claim that the balance in atleast T3-4 are close to perfect (the OPd Sci abilities aside, because both sides can use those), simply based on the fact that my gamewin and scoring remain consistant regardless of what ship/faction/tier I PvP at. (80-160k damage at T3 - 180-260k in T4, BOP/Battlecruiser/Fed Cruiser/Fed Escort (and yes, I have screenshots to prove it if you disbelieve me))

Yes, as Feds my team takes some nasty first strikes, but my teams ships are more durable, and we can break up an attack atleast on occasion, when a SV buddy of mine pulls an Klingon out of cloak.. And yes, when I play Klingon, Ive been pulled out of cloak fairly frequently (even though I try to keep at atleast 12k range.. Surprise "evasive 5k out to left and right scans" from 2 Fed SVs can catch a Klingon fairly easily).. They keep their aux when evasive, they are still in the 5k range of a cruisers extend *and* they can do this within a very short timespan.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
03-05-2010, 04:28 AM
making cloaked ships easier for the fed to spot will not change gameplay, it will mean the fed ball moves to attack klingon ships that are trying to gather, nothing more. the fed ball can be difficult to break even with coordination at times, if the ability to coordinate is removed the feds will have a huge advantage.

Def nearly always beats Att in pvp, tho i bet you already know that, i bet you also know the only chance to win the klingons have is through the execution of a good planned first strike, if that fails they are beat and have to organise to try again. So by asking for the removal of the ability to remain cloaked means you want to have the advantage not that you want to have balance.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
03-05-2010, 04:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uth
"Different" is good, "unbalanced" is bad.
Thats where we stand at this point; "different". Unbalanced; not really, real fed pvp teams are hard as hell to beat in T5. But the fedball has both advantages and disadvantages: sticking together they have easier to control the battle with extend shields and healing each other. Klingons cant really do that given the 5km range on heals and the way we need to position ourselves to attack (unless we start using beam arrays); on the other hand; sticking together means you'll be in the area effect debuffs like sensor scans or tykens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uth
I am saying that the current cloak ability is unbalanced due to its infinite nature.
How is that unbalanced? We can't fight cloaked. That cloak is only useful in moving around and the opening attack. Having less survival options than the federation; it makes sense to have it a permanent ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uth
BOTH sides hate the vanilla strategy.
False. It's been seen in Pirates of the Burning Sea; and it's also present here. People will follow the same strategy even when it's clear it doesnt always work. In POTBS; nationals used the "line"; here feds use the "ball". Same idea. Few people are able to think outside of the box; heck; in most PVP mmo's you'll always have the common question "what build is best for pvp? what do i use? how?" ... people don't try to figure things out by themselves, they rely on the few who actually try to see further.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uth
Lets add some flavor by giving the Feds something to do instead of sitting around waiting for the Klings, and lets give the klings some interesting targets instead of the constant Federation brick wall.
I seriously dont see how that will change anything. Feds will always ball up; giving them tools to hunt klingons, they won't use them to hunt klingons, they'll use them to defend the ball and prevent the only advantage klingons can get in a battle: the first strike. Once the first strike is gone; fed have the advantage with heals / armor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uth
As a Fed player I want to see a change to cloak which makes game play more enjoyable for all subscribers. I do NOT want to see a nerf to Klingons just because they are my opponent.
Then you should play as a klingon to T5 to understand the real differences between feds and klingons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uth
My win/loss record has no problem with the current "imbalance." My enjoyment of the game based on the variety of strategies and tactics is lower because of the way cloak works. I think the majority of both factions actually agree.
I think the majority of both factions disagree. And I think the problem has nothing to do with cloak; but with other abilities and how they work in the game. Like the 5km range healing limit.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
03-05-2010, 08:35 AM
The only part that is unbalanced is that the Klingon side pvp's much more and is better at it. Feds spend hours in queues and Klinks spend minutes so we can do 10 pvp matches to your one.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
03-05-2010, 09:43 AM
good god this cloak issue is geting old, as stated the only good thing about cloaking is being able to gather ourselves and the first strike, ive been on a few good pvp teams and ALLOT OF THE TIME we still get destroyed within a few seconds of decloaking, man i cannot count how many frackin times i uncloaked just to be froze solid and blown away before i can even react ,

STO is not any of the Star Trek The series where the FEDERATION allways wins no matter what , IT IS A GAME !

would you wright the editors or writers of the star trek series to take cloak away from all cloakable races because its unfair to the federation ? no you wouldnt because that would take away the intensity of the show and allso strip technology from races that use it or have allways had it from day 1 of creation.


if anyrhing i say strip away all the sci tech super uber weapons you know the ones im speakin of, and get down to some real fun dog fighting IMHO.

cloak topic will never go away expecially if and when roms become playable, the complaining will quadruple.
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