Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 PVP personal observations
03-10-2010, 09:07 AM
A few people might know me. I have no idea what you think of me, nor do I really care, tbh. Not to be glib, but seriously, you are just e-Personalities on the internet.

Anyhow, I thought I would note some things that I see in pvp so that we can discuss them:

1. 50% of KDF don't know what to do when a carrier is in game...they run off, leaving it undefended and unsupported. When this happens, the risk of losing the match goes up significantly.

2. Feds that stay close to the center of the map do better than when they hang out by a spawn point.

3. feds suck at spawn camping

4. Mines are more or less useless before Admiral/General.

5. Smack talkers make me want to shoot them.

6. People react violently when anyone suggests that SNB needs to be nerfed.

7. FBP is nice for targeting a ship that used jam sensors on you...for the ram

8. VM and SNB need to leave an immunity dot so that one target can't get hit 4 times in a row...I only have so many sci teams.

9. escorts refuse to use Evasive maneuvers to escape from battle, instead they squibble around in your line of fire wondering why the beams keep tracking them.

10. Some BoP captains forget that Cruisers and Carriers can't turn well...so they run off and die because they fly around like ferrets on RedBull.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
03-10-2010, 10:38 PM
More personal observations. Like the OP, I could care less what you think of me.

1. Played 4 PVP games tonight against Klingons. 2 space, 2 ground. First match was 8 blues on 5 reds in space, and they were outnumbered but played their behinds off. TEAMWORK, people. I got owned over and over again and yet, it was actually fun, because you were watching people who really, really knew what they were doing, but it wasn't all instakill stuff. And they didn't resort to PNB and RSP and VM either. Mixed weapon loads, use of tactics, beautiful.

2. Second PVP was ground, 9 reds against 2 blues. Me and the other Fed guy (another engineer like me) bunkered down and created Castle Cheapness, with mines, turrets, FFD's, drones, you name it. OH, we got beaten the crap out of , but after the Klingons realized it was just us two, they came at us two at a time. It was very , very classy, lots of RP'd trash talk and we lost pretty heavily but we took some with us.

3. Third PVP game was , I think, like 7 Feds against at least 6 Klings, and there was absolutely zero teamwork on the Fed side. There was one really good Fed player (not me) and one or two good Klings, everyone else just kinda shambled around in a mess and got repeatedly killed. The level of cheapness was really, really high -- VM + Jam sensors + two escorts lining up to cannon rapid fire , one with tetryons and one with disruptors, I blew up repeatedly. Still, cheap or not , good tactics.

4. Last game was 5 (maybe 6) feds against 4 Klingons...and the Klingons were losing. I am afraid I don't understand this. Given equal odds, on ground, Klings should never ever lose to Fed. EVAR. It didn't help if you taunted with RP style they responded with racist commentary, cursing and chilldish complaints.

Now, I'm not going to name names, either for the players who were awesome or the ones who werent. But there are a few conclusions that can be made about PVP

A) Some of the Klingons are into PVP as RP as well, which is interesting. But there are fewer of them as time goes on. I don't even want to know what kind of insane stupid grinding a Klingon has to do to get to Captain, but it probably isn't pretty.

B) Klingons have really defined and refined tactics. Groundwise, they know exactly how to time and use their kits and powers. In space, they can link up and combine powers with almost no delay. IF you are good and quick with your keyboard you can hold your own ...for a while. But eventually they WILL wreck you because they're specced for it an you aren't.

C) Persuant to B, those Klingons who AREN'T learning from mistakes and rebuilding are basically ... not very impressive. They don't use teamwork, they don't flank, they don't use their kits properly, and they basically all around don't bring to the game a really enjoyable PVP experience, win or lose.

I am still not happy with the PVP in the game. I'm certainly thinking that before Klingon players can be able to enjoy the game they need more PvE content to give them SOMETHING to do besides PVP, since all PVP play ends up either honing their skills to a lethal edge or results in sloppy gameplay becuase you either massively outnumber and outpower the enemy or you are outnumbered and quit.

Responses to the OP:

1) KDF support of carriers I saw tonight was pitiful. Escorts running flat out away from it, leaving it open to our own escorts.

2) Feds do BEST when they have a game plan for the map regardless of where they are, but giving up the center of the map does allow them in theory to defend from one direction. It's hard , though, because if you respawn in the wrong place....

4) Mines are always useless unless employed PROPERLY.

5) What kind of smack? Well done RP'd smack talking in character doesn't bother me. The adolesecent chest beating of some 15 year old telling me he's going to own my mother amuses me.

The rest, I agree with
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
03-10-2010, 10:46 PM
Quote:
C) Persuant to B, those Klingons who AREN'T learning from mistakes and rebuilding are basically ... not very impressive. They don't use teamwork, they don't flank, they don't use their kits properly, and they basically all around don't bring to the game a really enjoyable PVP experience, win or lose.
D) Pursuant to C these tend to be the same feddie bears that are convinced that Klingons are OP'd simply by being Klingon.. they learned nothing about WHEN to use abilities as a Fed and continue to learn nothing about the WHEN the WHY and the HOW things work...

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
03-10-2010, 11:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lunatec View Post
6. People react violently when anyone suggests that SNB needs to be nerfed.
Change SNB to FBP.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
03-10-2010, 11:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugh View Post
D) Pursuant to C these tend to be the same feddie bears that are convinced that Klingons are OP'd simply by being Klingon.. they learned nothing about WHEN to use abilities as a Fed and continue to learn nothing about the WHEN the WHY and the HOW things work...

True. However, concurrent to C, these are the same people who go into PVP with the wrong kits and set up to fight PVE.

Here's a tip : if you can't handle AI Starfleet and Romulans, you are *NOT READY* to take on PVP Klingons in any way , shape, or form. If you can handle them, review what you did, and ramp it up to eleven.

Klingons > Fed at PVP because Klingons spend 100% in PVP and Feds do not. I am so lost when people scream "Klingons overpowered they get better gears..."

Whisky Tango Foxtrot.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
03-11-2010, 02:59 AM
Sadly Klingons ARE overpowered - to a point. In a one-on-one fight I can engage one up to 9 or 10 levels below me yet they can still cut through my shields like a blowtorch through styrofoam yet I have to pound away and pound away just to try to take down his shields. And before you say I'm not geared or using the right skills pull your head in - I'm geared/set up well enough that I should be able to at least hold my own and make a fight of it. I expect that someone with more ability than I will still beat me even when they're that much below me in level and I'm fine with that and applaud it - but they shouldn't be able to do it as though I don't even have shields equipped. Sorry, but THAT is unbalanced.

I'm more than happy that Klingons have cloak - in fact I love it due to the challenge of detecting them or second guessing their direction of attack but I am so sick of getting hit by a vm right off the bat (with no way for me to override it) and my shields gone in one salvo and I'm dead before the vm even expires. I'm sorry but that's just NOT FUN - and pvp is supposed to be fun after all.

I get that teamwork is important and indeed the best pvp runs I've had have been when the feds are actually organised (not counting KvK pvp) - but I'm so over dying, respawning 40-60 km away, not being able to get back into the fight in time to save anyone and then getting picked off before we can even regroup because we're too separated.

I'm sorry but imo pvp in this game is indeed UNBALANCED (although I think pvp at LCDR level is much better balanced). I get that an uncoordinated Fed team will get beaten and I expect it - but even an uncoordinated pug group against similar level or lower level Klingons should be able to achieve something like a 15-5, 15-7 or similar scoreline or even have a chance of winning - and while I have seen those scorelines all too often even a well coordinated pug fed team goes down 15-1 or 15-0. And of course an uncoordinated fed team is just a slaughter waiting to happen.

My point is that the imbalance is such that often, for pug fed groups in particular, there is just simply no hope of winning at all - to the point where all too often I'm entering an instance, finding I'm hopelessly outnumbered or it's obvious that it's going to be a slaughter so I just sit there and wait to die now - I can't even be bothered putting in the effort anymore, and of course that's just simply not FUN (for anybody). I get great rewards even if I lose so WHY should I bother putting in effort in a pug group that clearly isn't going to match it with the opposition?

And before you say it I also have a Klingon toon so I've seen it from both sides - and personally as a Klingon I find a 15-0 scoreline just as boring and uninspiring (which is why I love the balance of KvK pvp).



PS I should add I'm talking space-based pvp here - I haven't given the ground-based pvp enough time yet so that could be completely different for all I know.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
03-11-2010, 03:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Netwarrior67
Sadly Klingons ARE overpowered - to a point. In a one-on-one fight I can engage one up to 9 or 10 levels below me yet they can still cut through my shields like a blowtorch through styrofoam yet I have to pound away and pound away just to try to take down his shields. And before you say I'm not geared or using the right skills pull your head in - I'm geared/set up well enough that I should be able to at least hold my own and make a fight of it. I expect that someone with more ability than I will still beat me even when they're that much below me in level and I'm fine with that and applaud it - but they shouldn't be able to do it as though I don't even have shields equipped. Sorry, but THAT is unbalanced.

I'm more than happy that Klingons have cloak - in fact I love it due to the challenge of detecting them or second guessing their direction of attack but I am so sick of getting hit by a vm right off the bat (with no way for me to override it) and my shields gone in one salvo and I'm dead before the vm even expires. I'm sorry but that's just NOT FUN - and pvp is supposed to be fun after all.

I get that teamwork is important and indeed the best pvp runs I've had have been when the feds are actually organised (not counting KvK pvp) - but I'm so over dying, respawning 40-60 km away, not being able to get back into the fight in time to save anyone and then getting picked off before we can even regroup because we're too separated.

I'm sorry but imo pvp in this game is indeed UNBALANCED (although I think pvp at LCDR level is much better balanced). I get that an uncoordinated Fed team will get beaten and I expect it - but even an uncoordinated pug group against similar level or lower level Klingons should be able to achieve something like a 15-5, 15-7 or similar scoreline or even have a chance of winning - and while I have seen those scorelines all too often even a well coordinated pug fed team goes down 15-1 or 15-0. And of course an uncoordinated fed team is just a slaughter waiting to happen.

My point is that the imbalance is such that often, for pug fed groups in particular, there is just simply no hope of winning at all - to the point where all too often I'm entering an instance, finding I'm hopelessly outnumbered or it's obvious that it's going to be a slaughter so I just sit there and wait to die now - I can't even be bothered putting in the effort anymore, and of course that's just simply not FUN (for anybody). I get great rewards even if I lose so WHY should I bother putting in effort in a pug group that clearly isn't going to match it with the opposition?

And before you say it I also have a Klingon toon so I've seen it from both sides - and personally as a Klingon I find a 15-0 scoreline just as boring and uninspiring (which is why I love the balance of KvK pvp).



PS I should add I'm talking space-based pvp here - I haven't given the ground-based pvp enough time yet so that could be completely different for all I know.
Your power levels are set wrong and you are not using the right abilities.

Period.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
03-11-2010, 06:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugh View Post
Your power levels are set wrong and you are not using the right abilities.

Period.
Something's not right 1 on 1 I don't feel overpowered by a klingon, my only complaint in PVP Is FBP, it should hit shields first.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
03-11-2010, 07:01 AM
If you are losing 1v1 against ships 10 levels lower it has nothing to do them being op but you have either picked all ground skills, have a lousy weapons loadout, bad gear etc.

Feel free to post your skills, powers, weapons and people can help you become a better pvper.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
03-11-2010, 09:09 AM
Some observations of my own:

1. Resorting to the cheap combo of Scramble Sensors / Subnucleonic beam + Viral Matrix doesn't mean you can actually destroy anyone and anything in your path like a godly being of utter ruin and destruction. Fleeing in your BoP after you find the cruiser still at 40% hull when VM runs out results in a well deserved "lol" from me. Seriously you can't be that bad.

2. Cruisers can ram Bird of Preys. They really can.

3. Chasing a Federation cruiser that is intend on fleeing with five Klingons is unproductive. By the time he has ran through all his defenses and you manage to destroy it, the rest of his team is partying in the great halls of conquered Kronos.

4. Using Extend Shields in a PUG to help a teammember while facing a premade equals a very big sign thats says "I have a deathwish".
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