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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
03-10-2010, 09:31 PM
I think the real answer is that Cryptic designed the skills with PvE in mind, not PvP.

Any PvP game designer should know better than to include a lot of crowd control. Players always hate that stuff. But Cryptic designed a lot of them in because hey, CC is a classic RPG skill archetype and NPCs don't complain when you chain stun them.


They just need to tone the stuff down.

Having SNB put all your systems on timers is bad. Pick a few random systems or maybe just "all officers of a random type" and put them on timers rather than the entire ship. Same for Viral Matrix. Let it infect some random systems rather than the entire ship.


People are reasonably content about dying if they can still at least act.

The really hate it when they die without being able to act, though.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
03-10-2010, 09:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekkameron View Post
No they shouldn't, ship engagements in star trek are very very quick. Look at the mass battles during the Dominion war in DS9 ships getting one shotted etc etc. Or perhaps Borg cutting a ship in half with a energy weapon in one go.

What about everyone dying from a single max setting phaser hit?
You shouldn't use TV as a justification - the ships have plot armor and weapons that everyone knows it's very OP.

Ground Combat - is more like killing the guy with multiple stuns - or using the 2 shot exploit - which is nothing like TV.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
03-10-2010, 09:38 PM
That's the Truth, Slamz. Reminds me of an old saying back in the early MMOs, "Never let players lose control over themselves". It's not too late for Cryptic to alter these abilities and make them PvE only.

If we reduce the ammount of dependance on abilities, PvP might be fun again like it was back in Teir 2.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
03-10-2010, 09:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamz
People are reasonably content about dying if they can still at least act.

The really hate it when they die without being able to act, though.
I agree with all of your post, but this last part strikes me a certain way (not a bad way). If more developers would adhere to this basic fact of life then I think all mmos would be better off.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
03-10-2010, 09:43 PM
Quote:
No they shouldn't, ship engagements in star trek are very very quick. Look at the mass battles during the Dominion war in DS9 ships getting one shotted etc etc. Or perhaps Borg cutting a ship in half with a energy weapon in one go.
Everyone knows that the defiant was op, and should have been nerfed. In TNG, the bridge officers were ridiculous op. Data, for instance, should never have been in the show. It was totally imbalanced.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
03-10-2010, 09:44 PM
CC is only powerful when used in conjunction with damage.

In other words, there are two options when considering 'balance' for CC:

1) Buff defensive abilities. The problem with this suggestion is that there are already problems with defensive chains (e.g., RSP chains). Unless the intention is to make combat last longer than it currently does, in which case healing would need to be reduced in order to allow combat to end at all.

2) Add counters to the CC. In my opinion, Viral Matrix is fine now that Science Team works, and Attack Pattern Omega has always worked. (Sure, it might require 3x Science Teams, because of the debuff stack, but PVP is team-oriented after all.) All we need is Science Team to work during (and as a counter to) Subnucleonic Beam.

===

I would also propose a completely separate option that would require time to develop: diminishing returns on target buff/debuff. (Others had already suggested caps and cooldowns on target buff/debuff stacks.) But this is not limited to CC abilities.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
03-10-2010, 09:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Dravis
CC is only powerful when used in conjunction with damage.

In other words, there are two options when considering 'balance' for CC:

1) Buff defensive abilities. The problem with this suggestion is that there are already problems with defensive chains (e.g., RSP chains). Unless the intention is to make combat last longer than it currently does, in which case healing would need to be reduced in order to allow combat to end at all.

2) Add counters to the CC. In my opinion, Viral Matrix is fine now that Science Team works, and Attack Pattern Omega has always worked. (Sure, it might require 3x Science Teams, because of the debuff stack, but PVP is team-oriented after all.) All we need is Science Team to work during (and as a counter to) Subnucleonic Beam.

===

I would also propose a completely separate option that would require time to develop: diminishing returns on target buff/debuff. (Others had already suggested caps and cooldowns on target buff/debuff stacks.) But this is not limited to CC abilities.
interestingly enough, when there are 2+ science debuffs on a target a self applied science team can "freak out" and not remove anything. It doesn't always happen, but thats what the preliminary testing showed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
03-10-2010, 09:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by faithborn
interestingly enough, when there are 2+ science debuffs on a target a self applied science team can "freak out" and not remove anything. It doesn't always happen, but thats what the preliminary testing showed.
If you can replicate it, this should really be reported in a ticket. Some QA folks pay close attention to the Tribble forums, so it might be worthwhile to replicate it on Tribble, ticket it, and then post a report in the Tribble Bug Forum.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
03-10-2010, 10:34 PM
IMHO, some Science abilities like SNB and VM should be PvE only. If Cryptic did that, then that alone would remove a ton of headaches in the PvP community, enough that we all would be playing more on level ground. The only abuse would be limited to Jamming techniques.

Other options include:

1) Making Science Team more potent in being able to debuff multiple effects with a longer duration. So the more Sci Team techniques used on you, the shorter your Sci Team cooldown.

2) Giving Engineering Teams cancelling abilities like Science Team. (After all, the Engineers are in charge of the computers, not the Scientists).

3) Add a Sci Team Console that gives a Computer Anti-Hacking resistance. For instance: At Tier 2, a Sci Console has a 10% chance to counter the Jamming of a BoP. And at Tier 5, a Mk X Console has a %50 chance to counter Viral Matrix.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
03-10-2010, 10:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
Cryptic really ruined STO with all these high level abilities and trying to pass this off as Star Trek. Well Cryptic, hate to tell you, but it's not!

Everyone agrees that the best PvP in both Space and Ground is Tier 2. And why? Because it's not dependant on Special Abilities.
Actually it is...but it isn't conceded one way or the other on who has more CC and anti CC...

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