Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Simple things to fix pvp.
03-18-2010, 12:03 PM
In the name of disclosure, I'm a Fed. RA5. I've been in a few hundred space battles.

First off, does cloaking give klingons a large tactical advantage? Yes. Klingons, if you don't believe me, I challenge you to form a team, go into a pvp battle without ever turning on your cloaks. You'll suddenly find Feds behaving very differently. No more Rambo's flying solo. No more groups of three sitting motionless to be attacked by a superior force. There is subtle psychology at play here that most people don't take into account.

Should we get rid of it? No. It's Star Trek.

How do we fix it?

First, have a common spawn point so feds can find each other quickly. Or have automatic grouping. Or both.

Second, the game shouldn't start until teams have been equalized. No more 5v1 until more trickle in.

Third, allow feds to fight feds, the enemy could be considered mirror universe feds. Why would this help? Lets face it, there are some terrible fed players out there. There's one big cause to this, lack of experience in pvp. Because there are so many more feds than klingons, it is not unusual for me to sit on the pvp queues for an hour and not fight a single battle. In fact, I usually go to a space war zone and hope there's some klingons there to kill.

The only other thing I can think of that needs work is Subnuc. Come on, 25 seconds of not being able to do anything? Not even redirect your shields? If they can't kill you in 25 seconds then they're doing something wrong. Perhaps extend the cooldown timer, or make it counterable with another science officer ability.

There's more I could say, but just implementing these would dramatically help pvp, IMHO.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
03-18-2010, 12:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzx
First off, does cloaking give klingons a large tactical advantage? Yes. Klingons, if you don't believe me, I challenge you to form a team, go into a pvp battle without ever turning on your cloaks. You'll suddenly find Feds behaving very differently. No more Rambo's flying solo. No more groups of three sitting motionless to be attacked by a superior force. There is subtle psychology at play here that most people don't take into account.
I routinely PvP without ever using my cloak. carriers can't cloak, ever. not even out of combat. we've formed a 3-carrier fleet group and gone into battle, and we still see Rambo's flying solo and groups of 3 sitting motionless. as you say, there are some terrible fed players out there.

-ken
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
03-18-2010, 12:24 PM
When the maps were showing cloaked enemies, it made very little difference in PvP. It slightly made re-grouping harder, and it sometimes allowed Feds with sensor scan to screw up timing. But it hardly changed the outcomes.

Everyone agrees the queues are broken. And I agree SNB and VM need work...limit what they disable.

Whether anything listed is 'simple' is another whole question...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
03-18-2010, 01:34 PM
Izzx,

I PvP with a RA Fed and BG Klingon, and have seen both sides.

The biggest problem facing Fed players is not cloaks, it is how Feds mostly take their experience whipping NPC mobs into PvP fights and get pounded for it. That isn't a game design issue, not directly anyway.

I think your last comments are hitting on something important. There is little value right now in fleets (Fleet bank being about it). If I was able to take a few LTs into a PvP instance with my RA and one other RA and show them how we PvP each other, explain it in a way they can see it, it would make a huge difference.

When Fleets are empowered to be tools for developing better players within communities, a lot of the balance issues that exist in perception will disappear. As of right now, the only relationship between a RA and LT is via chat - I can't actually assist that much by example. The lack of mentorship is an issue.

As an experienced RA, I never meet other RAs looking for a mentor. A great many folks slip through the cracks long before they reach RA though.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
03-18-2010, 01:51 PM
That's a great idea darksided. They already have a mission that simulates combat. Why not extend that to fleets?

As far as cloak. Like I said, I don't think they should get rid of it. Variety is the spice of battle. To say it doesn't give you a tactical advantage, and somehow doesn't affect the battle on a psychological sense, doesn't add up. I am surprised (err, no I'm not) that there are still Rambos even when they see an enemy fleet. However, I think you'd notice the number of Rambos drastically reduced if Klingons decided not to use cloak during a battle. Which I don't think they should.

Honestly, I don't think VM is broken, it doesn't last long enough. The only time I've ever died from VM was when I was about to die anyway. And VM does have a counter to it also. Subnuc though, wow, 25 seconds is an eternity in pvp. And, you can't do anything except engineering team. Just being able to redirect shields would help a lot.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6 not bad
03-18-2010, 01:53 PM
I agree with your federation assesment.
Battle cloak or not it is almost impossible to not go into pvp and be outnumbered.
Then there are the awesome science vessels and skills on other ships that can kill the cloak etc.

I want it to be equal teams that would make the whole experience tons better and satisfy my bloodlust.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
03-18-2010, 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzx
Subnuc though, wow, 25 seconds is an eternity in pvp. And, you can't do anything except engineering team. Just being able to redirect shields would help a lot.
Actually, you can't eng team either. It's on cooldown.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
03-24-2010, 07:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowreap
I routinely PvP without ever using my cloak. carriers can't cloak, ever. not even out of combat. we've formed a 3-carrier fleet group and gone into battle, and we still see Rambo's flying solo and groups of 3 sitting motionless. as you say, there are some terrible fed players out there.

-ken
Keep in mind also that only BoPs can cloak during combat and when they do ... they can be easy pickings going in and out of cloaks.

When I'm in my Raptor, I find myself using cloak less and less and less and it definitely cannot help me escape a fire storm of phasers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
03-24-2010, 07:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
Izzx,

I PvP with a RA Fed and BG Klingon, and have seen both sides.

The biggest problem facing Fed players is not cloaks, it is how Feds mostly take their experience whipping NPC mobs into PvP fights and get pounded for it. That isn't a game design issue, not directly anyway.

I think your last comments are hitting on something important. There is little value right now in fleets (Fleet bank being about it). If I was able to take a few LTs into a PvP instance with my RA and one other RA and show them how we PvP each other, explain it in a way they can see it, it would make a huge difference.

When Fleets are empowered to be tools for developing better players within communities, a lot of the balance issues that exist in perception will disappear. As of right now, the only relationship between a RA and LT is via chat - I can't actually assist that much by example. The lack of mentorship is an issue.

As an experienced RA, I never meet other RAs looking for a mentor. A great many folks slip through the cracks long before they reach RA though.
I give a roaring AMEN to this post and agree completely for many of the same reasons.

Regarding Fed players ... I went in and got CLOBBERED! ... It was because I was treating it like a Deep Space Encounter against the 'machine' and found the very real people behind those Klingon ships are quite different, using different tactics.

However, I stuck with it and learned to face them.

At first, I died every time and then I got my first kill followed by two and then three.

Then I was dying much less often and actually survive without dying on occasion.

Point is ... I learned and adapted.

And because of that, I'm better in the PvE game as I think outside the box.

I went into a deep space encounter geared for my friend who was Cmdr rank in that tier ship with me a Lt. Cmdr. in my Constitution hybrid.

We had about about three Romulan battle groups merge together ... He died twice and got stuck elsewhere.

I stayed in the fight, never died, and picked them off one by one. ... Not because I'm awesome or other nonsense. ... But because I had PvP experience and faced the Warriors of the Empire ... whom I know also fly among with pride.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Regarding Fleets ... Yeap ... Fleets are useless at the moment except as social clubs.

We need "fleet" actions that are "FLEET" actions where fleets can do things together. Heck, let fleets square off against each other on special instanced / PvP styled battle zones.

Create such zones where various ranks can go in.

Also while I'm at it ... We need a 1v1 PvP set up for one on one challenges as I always hear and agree ... "If it had been 1 on 1 instead of 5 on 1 ... You'd have been mine."

Toss in "War Zones" that are just that ... live action war zones that instead of being driven through objectives ... You simply fly to that system and know that you are battling other players and fleets in a no-holds-barred battle that never ends.

THAT would really see fleet action as well as INDIVIDUAL.

I know a lot of people that go to Borg Hunt NOT to hunt Borg but to battle each other outside of the PvP Queue environment.

Sometimes less structure can be as much fun (if not more) than more structure.
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