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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
03-19-2010, 08:18 PM
The problem I see is that people see science abilities and scream 'OP NERF IT!!', without considering that science ships pack a considerably smaller punch than the other ships. There's a viable counter to VM, so that's not a big issue, though I would like to see a short period of immunity after it clear to prevent chaining it. SNB needs looking at, best bet would be a slight reduction in the length of time it lasts. And I mean a slight reduction, if it then still seems too long consider a further reduction, don't just nerf it into oblivion.

This same issue seems to pop up in every MMO, tank / DPS classes want the debuff classes nerfed while expecting to keep their own strengths intact. Science needs a few minor tweaks, not the bludgeoning with the nerf bat some seem to be crying out for.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
03-19-2010, 10:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pheema
The problem I see is that people see science abilities and scream 'OP NERF IT!!', without considering that science ships pack a considerably smaller punch than the other ships. There's a viable counter to VM, so that's not a big issue, though I would like to see a short period of immunity after it clear to prevent chaining it. SNB needs looking at, best bet would be a slight reduction in the length of time it lasts. And I mean a slight reduction, if it then still seems too long consider a further reduction, don't just nerf it into oblivion.

This same issue seems to pop up in every MMO, tank / DPS classes want the debuff classes nerfed while expecting to keep their own strengths intact. Science needs a few minor tweaks, not the bludgeoning with the nerf bat some seem to be crying out for.
You are joking right? You must be. Every time I am hit with snb it lasts 18 seconds minimum. What do you propose shorten it to 15? Science has many many many viable debuff/buff/heal abilities, I think it speaks volumes that people focus on using and buffing 2 abilities the most.
I mean do you like it when someone comes up to you while your in the middle of a heated battle, unplugs your keyboard and says "Ok now sit there for the next 18-30 seconds and enjoy it".
From what I have seen pretty much everyone including a lot of science officers are sick and tired of it.
Science is not supposed to be the top "I kill you" class, tactical is supposed to be.
TBH I don't think the roles are as defined as they should be and I certainly hope they don't make it any more flexible. If anyone can heal/dps/tank as any type of officer in any type of ship as well as any other combination then honestly whats the point? Just make 1 ship type and one officer type. But hey whatever.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
03-20-2010, 12:29 AM
Why is everybody always blabbering about science ships when it comes to subnucleonic beam ? This is a Science Officer Ability and has nothing to do with Science Vessels in general.

The argument about Science Vessels need subnucleonic beam because they lack damage is totally stupid, cause a Science Officer can sit in any Ship he likes.

Quote:
Damage outscaling shields and SNB+VM combos are both an issue, cryptic seems to be trying to solve it with the EPS nerf so maybe sci power drain builds might do well, should really be a skill to boost shield hp and regen by 100% like how wep damage can be boosted.
Damage does not outscale Shields if your setup dosnt lack defensive BO Powers in favor of Offense,CC or Debuff... unless you are hit with Subnuclenic Beam. There are more then enough powers which can make shields extremely tough, even to the point of becoming almost invulnerable against a single opponent... and I'am not talking about Rsp.

Subnucleonic Beam is the only deciding factor in this again.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
03-20-2010, 12:58 AM
This is sad....
when you are SNB then move your power to shield, COMMUNICATE to you team mates so they know to heal you (if you are in a PUG then don't QQ when youget beaten PUGS are a total waste of time)
the alternative to Shields is to go full power to weapons and attack with auto attack the dps is still viable.
I am not disputing that SNB needs a counter...NOT A NERF a counter like a tactical team or something.
FBP is in need of tweeks but seriously learn to get heals and retarget a new target.
The one major thing i am noticing is that people are not in a Fleet group they are all flying in PUG wondering why it sucks.....
My fleet rocks we pvp all the time and **** face constantly...so much so we make klinks quit the map when they see us. We do not stack FBP or sci officer with SNB or VM we run with a roudned team and we do work.
Get in a good fleet get on voice com and learn to PVP right.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
03-20-2010, 01:04 AM
I just wrote a reply for another thread but some of the examples used there seem to be more appropriate to this thread since the discussion is essentially about balance.

Currently i consider STO's Combat being out of balance.

There is too much emphasis on abilities, and any other game's combat system that emphasizes abilities at least has both sides standing on the same level in terms of mitigation and maneuverability.

A Rogue, a Warrior a Mage, heck a Tank or a Plane or a Ship or space ship, in any other game that employs a system of abilities, at least has these Characters and Vehicles having same maneuverability and stats, with same accessibility to weapons.

This is not the case in STO at this time. federation ships and Klingon ships differ in capabilities, but have access to same abilities, which means that one side is overpowered on a fundamental level.

If we were to make an analogy immagine if you had two rogues in wow, one Alliance and One Horde, the Alliance Rogue would have 50% more hit points, no stealth and limited access to weapons.. the Horde Rogue would be 100% faster, have Stealth and access to Weapons dong double DPS, ...would that be balanced?

One could think that the Higher Hit points of the Alliance Rogue would balance with the Double DPS of the Horde Rogue, it should give him enough time to do enough damage to the Horde Rogue that has less Hitpoints.

But in practice this is far from being the case, because due to the higher maneuverability the Horde Rogue would be able to remove the opportunity from the alliance one, circle strafing, and be in a position to stun Lock, ambush etc while avoiding stun lock himself since he is faster and more maneuverable, the alliance rogue would never have the same opportunity to come behind the horde rogue.

And I am not even counting Stealth here, or the Fact that the Horde Rogue can dish out more Damage, the system is already unbalanced.

The real question is, how do you correct it? It will depend on what you want as gameplay.

One solution is to make both with same speed and maneuverability, and stealth, and give access to same weapons. That is how it is in WoW, the differences between the sides are superficial and cosmetic, and the outcome decided by the Abilities used,both players try to get the upper hand on one another via the use of abilities. It is balanced and It is ability based.

Another solution is to remove all disabling abilities from the game, and let the differences balance out, Klingons do more damage, feds have more hit points. There is till the issue of maneuverability here however.

So maybe a third solution is a possibility to balance this, keep some disabling abilities in the game but restrict them to one side in a selective manner.

Klingons do more damage, feds have more hit points, Klingons can be more maneuverable and can Cloak, but Feds have some CC abilities to balance it out.

That way when that BOP or Battlecruiser locks on to your 6, you can throw out an ability that would hold them there for a while so you can maneuver as well and get out of this situation. But we do not want an "I win" mechanic either, the counter balance of this is the fact that the Klingon would still be more maneuverable after the ability expires and can still opt to bail and cloak and come back to one;s 6.

That way you have a continuous combat that involves tactical competition of strengths and weaknesses, both players trying to get the upper hand on their enemy....and this only happens when the system is balanced.

Right now, STO's combat is one sided for the most part.

We have to understand something else too, while there are three different classes in STO, in practice we all are fighting with ships, the same dynamic as in a game like wow cannot be fully implemented in terms of Rogues and tanks and Healers and Mages....

In STO the different classes add to the pool of possibilities in a mixed battle, but all are Ships fighting in space.

The analogy is more like All are Rogues (or whatever other class you like) with a different Spec rather than each one is a trully different class.

All Ships can shoot and all can tank and all can heal, and since we are talking about ships, it simply cannot be any other way it is supposed to be Star Trek, the only thing that is missing is balance within that premise.

Ultimately, even if restriction of certain abilities to one side as a balancing factor is not desirable, there needs to be removal or some of the current abilities nevertheless because of the inherent imbalance.

So even if we were to remove them it could still work in my eyes and the solution would be in the different tactics employed by the players, Federation ships would have to fight in a grouped way while Klingon ships have the benefit of more independent fighting style. This game play mechanic is self-balancing, albeit a bit more abstract in nature requiring two different minding. But it can constitute a variety in gameplay and richness as well as depth.

We can play both sides anyways, there is nothing more fitting than each side offering a different combat experience involving different tactical approach.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
03-20-2010, 01:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by akumarev
This is sad....
when you are SNB then move your power to shield, COMMUNICATE to you team mates so they know to heal you (if you are in a PUG then don't QQ when youget beaten PUGS are a total waste of time)
the alternative to Shields is to go full power to weapons and attack with auto attack the dps is still viable.
To bad Subnucleonic Beam even blocks out the Shield Redistribution and stops all Weapons from firing.

Quote:
Get in a good fleet get on voice com and learn to PVP right.
First you should learn how certain abilities work before you tell others L2P, otherwise its kind of embarrassing for you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
03-20-2010, 02:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasel
There are some obvious I win combo's that Science officers get and that is causing a huge influx of people looking to use them. This is starting to become a real problem. I do have a science officer Adm5 before you start flamming that bs. DEVS please do something soon!
This is what happens when you put in powers that prevent your opponent from acting in any way. They become the most prevalent build and if you're not flying it you might as well not show up. There should never EVER be a time when I can do nothing but stare at the screen. It's bad game design. It's a plague in all MMOs and what's worse it has almost zero bearing on the IP. With the exception of the one Breen Weapon (which was countered by a simple adjustment to the warpcore) you had to go to cultures thousands of years more advanced then the Federation to find the ability to completely shut a Starship down.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
03-20-2010, 02:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Stig View Post
With VM/FBP/SNB removed or severely neutered how do you expect science captains to survive ? Science doesn't get the offense bonus of tactical, or tanking ability of engineer. Please describe the viable science skills that will help science officers survive or effectively compete without listing tactical or engineering abilities.
Uhm Let's start with better shields then anyone else. Your space skills are the same as anyone else's so you can at least pump out the same DPS as an engineer. So this has you surviving better than a tac in an escort(and in the early levels eng in a cruiser) and doing at least as much damage as an engineer in a cruiser. You can target subsystems for free. There are science support skills that increase the survivability of you and your team. You can drain the shields of enemy targets. You can detect cloaked ships better than anyone. And so much more. Specific Skills Science Team III, Hazard Emitters, Tachyon beams etc etc etc. I think if they took away your ability to unplug someone's keyboard you'd be just fine.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
03-20-2010, 02:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJLogan75 View Post
This is what happens when you put in powers that prevent your opponent from acting in any way. They become the most prevalent build and if you're not flying it you might as well not show up. There should never EVER be a time when I can do nothing but stare at the screen. It's bad game design. It's a plague in all MMOs and what's worse it has almost zero bearing on the IP. With the exception of the one Breen Weapon (which was countered by a simple adjustment to the warpcore) you had to go to cultures thousands of years more advanced then the Federation to find the ability to completely shut a Starship down.
I know man. I was just thinking about all those times in the various star trek movies/series that a bop decloaked and hit the enterprise with a subnucleonic beam then uploaded a viral matrix and just blasted them to bits. Oh wait that never happened and it should not be taking place in this game either.
I like the way you put it better tho.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
03-20-2010, 02:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by akumarev
This is sad....
when you are SNB then move your power to shield, COMMUNICATE to you team mates so they know to heal you (if you are in a PUG then don't QQ when youget beaten PUGS are a total waste of time)
the alternative to Shields is to go full power to weapons and attack with auto attack the dps is still viable.
I am not disputing that SNB needs a counter...NOT A NERF a counter like a tactical team or something.
FBP is in need of tweeks but seriously learn to get heals and retarget a new target.
The one major thing i am noticing is that people are not in a Fleet group they are all flying in PUG wondering why it sucks.....
My fleet rocks we pvp all the time and **** face constantly...so much so we make klinks quit the map when they see us. We do not stack FBP or sci officer with SNB or VM we run with a roudned team and we do work.
Get in a good fleet get on voice com and learn to PVP right.
And this leads to a very very small pvp community and no one ever wants to pvp because if you're not in a fleet you don't stand a chance.
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