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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
I play both a Federation Science Captain and a KDF Tactical Commander in ground PvP. I really enjoy the close, hard fought battles, win or lose. In addition to the 5v1 queue problem, one thing I notice for the Federation getting rolled more often is the lack of team cohesion. It is like they are all individuals running around separately. The good Fed teams I've battled stuck together and fought as a unit. KDF forces generally do better at this since they PvP from the beginning and have more practical experience - but that is the only imbalance in ground PvP, experience. Well, that and the queue issues. You can help your side do better by sticking together. I played a few rounds as my Fed last night, and could only get one other player to team up - the rest just ignored me and ran off. The result when this happens is almost always the same, 40-5 KDF.

A side note about teaming: Science's healing kit is MUCH more effective in a team since you can easily see who needs healing, rather than scurrying around clicking each player to see who needs it.

Now, about 5v1: regardless which side you are on, why not ease up on the stuns/roots when you have your opponent outnumbered five to one? Maybe even stand down and make it a 2v1 or 3v1. It will be more sporting, and therefore more fun for both sides. It is no fun to roll or be rolled 5 vs 1 constantly. The badges will come either way.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
03-22-2010, 10:48 AM
Regarding 5v1.

I don't blame Feds at lower lvls who don't want to stick around and die 5 v 1. Now that I play Klingon at BG lvl, I rarely stick around to play 5v1 when Feds have 5. The key is the system is broken, and players usually have choices. For a Klingon BG or for a lower level fed, there are typically other ques available that can be jumped into very quickly making leaving a viable option.

In ground pvp, there are tactics that can spread out larger groups in the maps and give a badly outnumbered guy a chance to get some kills in, but those tactics are unpopular. I know because I do it. For example, an engineer with the neutralization kit can do a lot of running and if the enemy chases, the mines will thin the group out over time allowing for more manageable fights. The problem is nobody likes to chase people around the map a lot, so the 5 will complain heavily about the 1.

Last night I was 5v1 against feds, doing the neutralization kit run/ambush technique and winning 12-6 before another Klingon showed up. In the end, the feds complained because I wouldn't just stand there and die 5v1, and they got tired of chasing me around the map. I understand their complaints, and not everyone understands all the tactics available to folks.

Still, I was in a 5v2 on Saturday night and the 3 Fed tac officers all summoned their security escorts for every fight. They couldn't understand why both of us left and wouldn't stand there and fight 5 players and 12 NPCs each round. The system is what is broken, not the choices players make under the conditions. Those choices include both kit skills/tactics and the choice to stick around when badly overrun by a zerg.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
03-22-2010, 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinja
I played a few rounds as my Fed last night, and could only get one other player to team up - the rest just ignored me and ran off. The result when this happens is almost always the same, 40-5 KDF.

A side note about teaming: Science's healing kit is MUCH more effective in a team since you can easily see who needs healing, rather than scurrying around clicking each player to see who needs it.
Aside from the fact that ground PVP is hopelessly broken and isn't fun at all, it's true that Feds need more teamwork... so they can get held and vaporized in under a second as a group. FUN!

If they ever fix ground PVP so it's actually worth playing, let's hope they bring in auto-teaming. Being a healer sucks when you can't see anyone's life bar because they have team invites turned off for some moronic reason.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
03-22-2010, 12:53 PM
The Majority of Federation players are not PvPers, and they are having it forced upon them to do it for the sake of equipment, not territory or presitge.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
03-23-2010, 05:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinja
I play both a Federation Science Captain and a KDF Tactical Commander in ground PvP. I really enjoy the close, hard fought battles, win or lose. In addition to the 5v1 queue problem, one thing I notice for the Federation getting rolled more often is the lack of team cohesion. It is like they are all individuals running around separately. The good Fed teams I've battled stuck together and fought as a unit. KDF forces generally do better at this since they PvP from the beginning and have more practical experience - but that is the only imbalance in ground PvP, experience. Well, that and the queue issues. You can help your side do better by sticking together. I played a few rounds as my Fed last night, and could only get one other player to team up - the rest just ignored me and ran off. The result when this happens is almost always the same, 40-5 KDF.

A side note about teaming: Science's healing kit is MUCH more effective in a team since you can easily see who needs healing, rather than scurrying around clicking each player to see who needs it.

Now, about 5v1: regardless which side you are on, why not ease up on the stuns/roots when you have your opponent outnumbered five to one? Maybe even stand down and make it a 2v1 or 3v1. It will be more sporting, and therefore more fun for both sides. It is no fun to roll or be rolled 5 vs 1 constantly. The badges will come either way.
Kin,

Ah not to make things personal. However I notice you are one of the first people to exploit the 5v1 situations. I watched you i don't know how many times run straight up to a stunned player and start spamming rifle butts and melee to keep that person stunned with no chance of fighting back. This is a common klink tactic. Stick together, stunn the person then 2 or 3 instantly run up to the person and start exploiting, spamming rifle butts and bat'lehs. What did you call it one match, team work?

this is one of the biggest examples i have ever seen of the pot calling the kettle black.. = ).

However i do agree with the teamwork issue. Klinks work much better as a group, teaming up, sticking togther, all targeting one player untill they are dead. Fed's usually do just ignore team invites, run off in different directions or even when teamed they all target different enemy targets and don't work well together.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
03-23-2010, 05:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelmvor
Kin,

Ah not to make things personal. However I notice you are one of the first people to exploit the 5v1 situations. I watched you i don't know how many times run straight up to a stunned player and start spamming rifle butts and melee to keep that person stunned with no chance of fighting back. This is a common klink tactic. Stick together, stunn the person then 2 or 3 instantly run up to the person and start exploiting, spamming rifle butts and bat'lehs. What did you call it one match, team work?

this is one of the biggest examples i have ever seen of the pot calling the kettle black.. = ).

However i do agree with the teamwork issue. Klinks work much better as a group, teaming up, sticking togther, all targeting one player untill they are dead. Fed's usually do just ignore team invites, run off in different directions or even when teamed they all target different enemy targets and don't work well together.
Actually, you must have me confused with someone else. I specifically avoid spamming the riflebutt because I hate it myself. I will hit you with it once if I think I need to, but I definitely do not spam it. What I do use is the stun pistol, but that is on a six-second cooldown, so again, not spammable. There is one situation where I will hit someone with the riflebutt multiple times: after they have spammed me with it several times. It is so aggrivating.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
03-23-2010, 06:10 AM
Kin,

Well if i have you confused with another player I will be the first to apologize. I do remember the name though and instantly connected it with spamming melee. could be another player with the same name.

Though it is easy to spam the stun pistol. Especially if you are very fast at switching back and forth between weapons or use voice communications. Which is exactly what i use. I don't use a keyboard, I use voice comm's and can switch between weapons or get off my other attacks in just an instant. Much faster just to say, change, and my weapons instantly switch, or yell evade, and my telekentics instantly come off. I yell nade and instantly throw a grenade.

So as you can see it is very easy to spam/exploit things when changing between them as quickly as one can. Yes their is a 6 second cool down but the individual can be stunned for the same amount of time. Yes it is hit or miss, they may be stunned for half a second, or 6 seconds with a stunn pistol. It's still easy to exploit it. Even when they arn't and just start to move, your going to be hit or take damage but just stunn them again. Rinse and repeat until they are dead. Stun, switch to other weapon, if they got exposed, isn't death, if not, heavily damage them, switch back, check cool down timer, if they become unstunned, hit them with it again, if not ready hit them with palm strike or if your super quick, switch back, rifle butt, etc.

As an experienced ground pvp you can see where i am going with this. And that is just 1v1. Now imagine 3 people stunning a person and then running right up to them all spamming rifle butts, bat'lehs, palm strikes and other melee weapons. The player has 0 chance of ever becoming unstuned and when they do it's only long enough to get instantly stunned again.

Just cause a wep has a cool down timer doesn't mean it can't be exploited. = ).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
03-23-2010, 06:54 AM
I think we can all agree that it's not fun to be on the receiving end of hold spam. and when you're badly outnumbered (or very far behind on the scoreboard) it's even less fun.

it can get so bad that many players will just refuse to respawn, or they'll leave the match. yes, you can call them whiners and crybabies but *you* will be the ones stuck with nobody to kill (and no way to complete the match) if they all leave.

sometimes a pvp match finishes faster if you give the enemy the illusion that they're close to figuring out how to beat you. as long as you keep them thinking "darn, I *almost* got him that time!" they will keep respawning to die at your hands, over and over.

-ken
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
03-23-2010, 07:07 AM
Kinja is my Federation character, and he has only been in a couple of ground matches in the last month. Dagai is my KDF character, who has been in gound combat every night for last week or two.

I absolutely agree with you about the over-the-top holds and stuns in the game, and the fact that the queue allows uneven matches. Combine those two with blood-thirsty opponents and it can rapidly become unfun. I'd be happy if the stuns were toned way down, and I am hoping the new update will alleviate the problems somewhat. If stuns were completely removed, other changes would have to be put in place at the same, or you would have some unkillable Science captains though. So it may be better to leave well enough alone once the queues are fixed and the consumables break holds/exploits/wep malfunction. Oh, and put a cooldown on riflebutt/palm-strike.

Regarding uneven matches, last night the KDF side was getting handily beat by Federation (Dexter and some other guys - Tier 3). A couple of the KDF guys left once they saw we had a decent fight on our hands - that was quite maddening - leaving 2-3 of us to fight the five Feds. Usually, from my experience, KDF is beating the Federation, so I welcome those opportunities when we have a decent group of opponents, even if they are soundly beating us. Getting beat is when I learn the most. I really like fighting Lori's team (she physically abuses Dagai ), and Dexter and crew last night were quite tough - this is all Tier 3 for the moment.

Overall, I am really enjoying ground PvP, even with its warts. I just wish the queue was fixed so there would be even matches.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
03-23-2010, 07:26 AM
I don't bother with ground PvP because I absolutely hate everything about the ground mechanics in PvE. Because of this I have no interest in subjecting myself to it, much less subjecting other people to my clumsiness. I'm posting because you bring up several issues that I feel are important in both space and ground combat.

The uneven team load outs is frustrating across the board. The over manned team can be spiteful, cocky, and otherwise completely disrespectful in a way that only comes when all you have in your favor is the unfair advantage. Have a couple of people agree to hang back and attack only when attacked. Swap your teams so that no one has to stand still the entire match.

If you treat your opponents with some degree of respect then maybe they will be less likely to abandon the map and leave you with your diddle flowin' in the wind. I know one thing that gets under my skin is when the people who will swarm a low man group are the same people who will duck out when the numbers aren't in their favor.

It may be easier to decide you'd rather leave the 5v1 odds and que up another match. I guess what I really just wanted to say is thank you for sticking it out when you are at the disadvantage.
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