Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
03-24-2010, 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by immagikman01 View Post
Didnt bother to read all the other posts, but in answer to the OP, regardless of PvP or non-PvP....the basic tactic of laying in wait and ambushing an opponent is not honorable. A True Klingon or someone who wants to RP one, would find honor in measuring himself against his opponent, it does not gain him honor to take his opponent unaware or at less than his normal fitness level. To gain honor you must face opponents who are equal to or stronger than your self. To fight a lesser foe is a loss of honor. You may subjugate lesser races but you gain no honor in it, and in fact will give the lesser race Honor if they valiantly resist. There is no Dishonor in losing, there is only dishonor in trying to cheat to gain honor.

This is NOT a commentary on the Games PvP or mechanics or reality that necessitates Klingon Cloaking. Klingons were NEVER intended to have Cloaking technology in Gene Roddenberrys plan, however in the early 80's a script leak caused a late stage replacement of Romulans with Klingons instead...it was too late to do rewrites so they just plugged in Klingon where it said Romulan. Im reciting this stuff from memory from the time, so don't have the exact details but I do know that is what whent down in the real world, Klingons got Cloaks by a fluke, not because it is honorable to ambush your foes.
You're discussing a duel , and while this game is framed in a time of war . So if you're going to spout RP crap , then make sure you frame it in the proper context. War is an all out adventure , no quarter asked , no quarter given. The only honor then is the victory of the Empire . The federation is deemed a wortthy advesary and so any defeat or denial of resource to the enemy is considered a victory. So if you're going to RP get the context of it correct and think in the frame of the empire and not the individual . A klingon RP'er would place the benefit of the empire over his.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
03-24-2010, 11:57 AM
Acutally I am discussing ANY one on one encounter. WAR, Survival and Necessity require that issues of Honor take a secondary place to Duty and Responsibility. These are all seperate issues. In war you gain honor by treating your adversary with respect and dignity as long as they also act with honor and dignity. War will necessitate that you do what you must to win because WAR is a MUST WIN situation where the survival of not only an individual is at stake but your whole race/culture/nation as well.

Which is why I did not run "in game" Klingons down for using cloaking tactics, but even in game one can dishonor oneself. The game mechanics and the numbers disadvantage for the Klingons make cloaking a necessity.


Oh and being in a PvP area means you should be ready to get jumped at any time and never have your guard down.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
03-24-2010, 12:06 PM
i have always been puzzled that an honorable warrior race would even choose to employ cloaking devices, so i guess it is honorable for klingons, victory seems to take precedence over honor, at least the human concept of honor. mind you honorable combat in western europe was originally defined by two men in make up and wigs slapping each other with gloves and then shooting each other.... not for the lulz but for the honor!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
03-24-2010, 12:10 PM
War, seldom allows the luxury of niceties like Honor, thus it skews the issue. War isnt something you do for a weekend's kicks, it is almost always a life and eath struggle for ones entire faction/nation/race or whatever, to lose is not acceptable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
03-24-2010, 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by karek View Post
i have always been puzzled that an honorable warrior race would even choose to employ cloaking devices, so i guess it is honorable for klingons, victory seems to take precedence over honor, at least the human concept of honor. mind you honorable combat in western europe was originally defined by two men in make up and wigs slapping each other with gloves and then shooting each other.... not for the lulz but for the honor!
that boils it pretty much to the point.
Why would a race calling itself honorable rely so heavy on hit and run?
From my understanding Hirogen are way more honorable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
03-24-2010, 12:51 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
Do you view waiting in cloak, watching a Federation player conduct PvE, and attacking him when his shields are down, dishonorable or honorable?
I think it is the Klingon way and such actions are seen as honorable in thier culture.



Quote:
And if you disapprove of such an action, and saw a Klingon player doing it, would you black list him?
No I would not.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
03-24-2010, 02:06 PM
I think a lot of peple misunderstand honor, particularly in the military context.

Considering it an honor to die for your Country, King or Empire is one thing to think about.


Conducting oneself with "honor" on the battlefield can be construed to be many things, including:

- showing courage in battle

- obeying the "laws of war" such as not shooting those that try to surrender, civilians, wounded, etc.

- treating prisoners humainly

- not being cruel or inflicitng unnecessary suffering


But I find this "why would an honorable species use a cloak or hit and run tactics" almost laughable. To the Japanese honor is very important. Yet they did not consider a sneak attack on the Russian fleet at Port Arthur dishonorable, any more than they did 35 years later at Pearl Harbor.

The US military has conducted surprise attacks at the outset of hostilities numerous times, and WWII was the last time the US Congress issued a declaration of war.

A study of warfare will show that hit and run tactics by an inferior or even a superior force are common. Ambushes are common. Read Sun Tzu, Musashi, Clausewitz, Jomini or any other philosopher of war and you will see they all recommended taking every advantage that surprise and superior numbers offer.


The Klingons are warriors, no one should expect them to act stupidly out of honor, or to offer an enemy in battle any chivalrous breaks for the sake of "honor." Going 1 on 1 then you have 3:1 odds in your favor is stupid. As stupid as not hiding in ambush behind a stone wall or in a forest until the Redcoats are in your kill zone.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
03-24-2010, 02:09 PM
"You don't win a war by dying for YOUR country. You win a war by making the other SOB die for HIS country"

So - I take a ship in capable of beating a cube down solo.

You would expect an average BoP to take me on when I am at full strength, cruising with max shields up waiting for someone to try a pot-shot at me?

Not really bright.

So, I do not consider it dishonorable when the scum-sucking, lower than whale ka-ka cod-piece raked me over right after I took a cube down, and got torched by the core breach last week?

I would consider it wisdom on his part. And rather nice timing, even if he was a rat b*stard about it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
03-24-2010, 05:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by immagikman01 View Post
War, seldom allows the luxury of niceties like Honor, thus it skews the issue. War isnt something you do for a weekend's kicks, it is almost always a life and eath struggle for ones entire faction/nation/race or whatever, to lose is not acceptable.
actually the klingons would think of war on the weekend to be fun.... you know for ***** and giggles....a savage and backwards race. it is ironic to think that war to humans is such a serious matter while the klingons just do it for the lulz, oh and to be the subject of songs and stories
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
03-24-2010, 08:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophia
that boils it pretty much to the point.
Why would a race calling itself honorable rely so heavy on hit and run?
From my understanding Hirogen are way more honorable.
Hirogen also use cloaking a lot
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