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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
03-26-2010, 07:35 AM
Oh and the addition of 10v10 in Shanty Town is a nice touch. I haven't been in one, but I imagine with good players on both sides the battles will be epic. If one side doesn't have enough good players though, it will be a massacre.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
03-26-2010, 07:50 AM
Melee attacks should have knockback instead of expose and grant the victim a short immunity to knockdowns so it cant be spammed. problem with melee is that it lock the victim up unable to move at all.

weapon malfunction shorter duration or longer cooldown both works 1 sec difference makes it to easy to keep people permanently out of combat unless going with melee, that result in melee spam fest again locking people up even more. another option is to make WM only work on active weapon and not every weapon the victim have owned at once that enable people to change weapon and continue to fight while their first choice is disabled.

stasis field and hold should break on damage and grant victim a short duration immunity that leaves them viable as crowd control tools but not completely spamm button win.
The biggest problem is actually root that dont break on damage at all, just root someone in a thermal vent or a grenade cloud and watch them die withut able to move away or do anything from stun effects.

but the biggest problem is held weapons escpecially when 5 people all use them, 5% chance easily increased with traits is a lot when a gun fire every .25 sec throw in with a 100% +2 hold for secondary attacks and you can easily keep someone locked down while a team mate pick them to death with a fork .

this will be fixed most easy after a 2 sec hold grant a 10 sec immunity to hold and people will fast stop using it.

Every skill that is able to take people out 100% of the time from a combat is bad in the long run for the game. the easiest way to fix this is to grant victims immunities to what they just got hit by for a limited time afterwards that will fast stop any point in spamming any ability to the same victim over and over.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
03-26-2010, 08:01 AM
Its ded because there is a praticular exploit regaring weppons that anyone can do and they wont change
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
03-26-2010, 08:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WUB
Melee attacks should have knockback instead of expose and grant the victim a short immunity to knockdowns so it cant be spammed. problem with melee is that it lock the victim up unable to move at all.
I agree this could be tweaked, but it needs to be thought out. Melee expose is not a bad thing, because there are a number of ways to push people away from you (even racial traits do this). Perhaps it should only be allowed for melee weapons or fists or perhaps require skill points to be effective. It would be useful if there was a greater variety of melee weapons. Where is Sulu's fencing sword, for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WUB
weapon malfunction shorter duration or longer cooldown both works 1 sec difference makes it to easy to keep people permanently out of combat unless going with melee, that result in melee spam fest again locking people up even more. another option is to make WM only work on active weapon and not every weapon the victim have owned at once that enable people to change weapon and continue to fight while their first choice is disabled.
Weapons Malfunction is not broken, equipment diagnostics is. ED should not have twice the cooldown as the WM, because no one heals others in groups because of the long cooldown of ED. WM has diminishing returns on reuse against the same target and can be cured by any engineer with a specific kit ability, so it is hardly as overpowering as you suggest. It should be noted people can still use kit skills while under WM, and use melee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WUB
stasis field and hold should break on damage and grant victim a short duration immunity that leaves them viable as crowd control tools but not completely spam button win.
Spam "win button?" Clearly you are a newbie or have not played much at high level. At high lvl pvp stasis field is not a "win button" at all, it is exactly as you describe a crowd control ability that almost always requires teammates to get a quick kill. A stun phaser can ruin a science guys day 1v1 if they are counting on stasis field to be their "win button" at high level. Me thinks this is an experience problem, not a balance issue. I can't remember dieing to a solo science guy throwing around stasis field at tier 5 unless I was being tagged by a bunch of folks at once... which is how a good team should work together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WUB
The biggest problem is actually root that dont break on damage at all, just root someone in a thermal vent or a grenade cloud and watch them die without able to move away or do anything from stun effects.
But you can still take actions while rooted. I can shoot, heal, use my kit, etc., and root does no actual damage. Movement is important, no doubt, which is why root is useful, but again it is hardly a death nail. Root is how teams can get kills, but it still requires teamwork. The key to getting past root is to disable the person actually doing damage to you until root wears off. Most people who get rooted lose situational awareness and don't see who is dealing damage to them (an experience issue). The cooldown doesn't allow for anyone to chain root.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WUB
but the biggest problem is held weapons especially when 5 people all use them, 5% chance easily increased with traits is a lot when a gun fire every .25 sec throw in with a 100% +2 hold for secondary attacks and you can easily keep someone locked down while a team mate pick them to death with a fork .
No way, and this is proof you are a newbie. I prefer facing teams like this, because stun deals no significant damage at all and one large hypo can wash away the work of 5 stun boys. It is easy to tank a stun group while your teammates wipe them out. This is 100% an experience issue or specific to playing with a bad team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WUB
this will be fixed most easy after a 2 sec hold grant a 10 sec immunity to hold and people will fast stop using it.
Bad idea. This is nothing more than inexperience talking. Your idea will kill teamwork in PvP in a MMO game. Think about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WUB
Every skill that is able to take people out 100% of the time from a combat is bad in the long run for the game. the easiest way to fix this is to grant victims immunities to what they just got hit by for a limited time afterward that will fast stop any point in spamming any ability to the same victim over and over.
There is no skill that takes people out 100% of the time. If there was no one would ground PvP, and there would be a super class in ground PvP. There is no super class in PvP, the only argument that can be made is that there are super teams because they 1) work together and 2) each member understands how to maximize their kit within the team they are in.

There is no ability or kit that can be spammed to the same victim over and over unless you are talking about something like 3-5 vs 1, in which case your argument is the very silly case that 1 person shouldn't die fast solo to 3-5 enemies who are concentrating powers on a single target.

Please play ground PvP for longer than a day and know what you are talking about before making suggestions, it would be more meaningful. The balance of high lvl ground PvP is remarkable in STO, the weak link in ground PvP is almost always player inexperience or a bad team.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
03-26-2010, 08:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SwordofStars
Its ded because there is a praticular exploit regaring weppons that anyone can do and they wont change
I play ground PvP every day, and do not know about this mythical weapon exploit. You are rumor mongering a bunch of nonsense.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
03-26-2010, 09:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WUB
weapon malfunction shorter duration or longer cooldown...

stasis field and hold should break on damage and grant victim a short duration immunity...
Will Tacticals get a cooldown timer on their passive damage bonus from their Ground Traits?

I always hear Tacticals complain about WM and Science Holds, but what do they want? To make everyone just stand there in front of them, shooting back and forth? They passively do more damage than the other guy by using skill points, so they win in 3-4 (non-exposed) shots. Sounds real fun.

Lets nerf rolling and make cover non-blocking too.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
03-26-2010, 10:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
I play ground PvP every day, and do not know about this mythical weapon exploit. You are rumor mongering a bunch of nonsense.
either you prefer quick run overs while you use your engineer science skills to the full and would hate to see the advantages it gives you taken away.

Since Beta i have done characters with doing quests, i have leveled 4 characters up with primary ground and space pvp.

That you claim that Weapon malfunction is not broken proves it all. there is 1 second longer cooldown than duration and as you said it yourself the cure for it have way longer cooldown, that itself makes it unbalanced.

you talk about hypos washing away, that entered last patch yet you sound like you been using it since beta. and all your suggestions to improve a pvp that in your eyes is perfect as it is would actually help your engineer and science skills even more.

No exposes to people with full shields? Now what class fix those again, going to hide behind stims again with a new cooldown that makes you use two every minute or so.
now what about your statment regarding this

"There is no skill that takes people out 100% of the time. If there was no one would ground PvP, and there would be a super class in ground PvP. There is no super class in PvP, the only argument that can be made is that there are super teams because they 1) work together and 2) each member understands how to maximize their kit within the team they are in."

have you played pvp at all or have you never seen a stun phaser all that time you built up your superior pvp experience. I bet you use one as first attack weapon even with your sniper rifle in the belt ready for when the expose hits.

Don't patronize me, regarding pvp experience and think you make a strong case, i was most likely pvp'ing in mmo's before you where born, and in all games i have played there have been people like you, telling thousands of people that think a game is not good or fair that it is, that changing it would be a bad idea.

You as them are terrified it will change or terrified broken items you depend on will actually be fixed.

And before you go on with a new newbie rant to prove your superiority, let me tell you i played Federation and klingon and all classes on both sides. I can easily log in to the game and take adavantage of the things i think need changes, but i want good fun fights no matter what class i play not an easy win at all cost. I leave that to your kind.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
03-26-2010, 11:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WUB
either you prefer quick run overs while you use your engineer science skills to the full and would hate to see the advantages it gives you taken away.
Engineers and Science officers both do jack for damage. With either of those, it takes several minutes to get a kill without getting an exploit. DPS is the advantage Tactical officers get, but most tend to overlook the fact that they can burn through shields and health with regular weapon damage alone.
Quote:
That you claim that Weapon malfunction is not broken proves it all. there is 1 second longer cooldown than duration and as you said it yourself the cure for it have way longer cooldown, that itself makes it unbalanced.
If you use a shield charge, a lone Engineer can't kill you in the time your weapons are gone (unless they get an exploit). And after the first time, the second has less than a third of the duration.

If you stand there while an Engineer and his buddy both DPS you then yeah, you're done for. Then again, you were already done when you tried fighting 1-2.

Quote:
you talk about hypos washing away, that entered last patch yet you sound like you been using it since beta.
So you're ignoring the fix so you can go on complaining about something which used to be broken?

Quote:
No exposes to people with full shields? Now what class fix those again, going to hide behind stims again with a new cooldown that makes you use two every minute or so.
now what about your statment regarding this
This I agree with. My tac officer is almost always down shields a bit (unless someone is healing her), which my engineer is eternally at full shields.

I could maybe get on board with limiting exposes to 20 yards though. Honestly I think the expose/exploit thing is fine; 2 of the 3 classes are difficult to kill or to get kills with except through exploits.

Quote:
have you played pvp at all or have you never seen a stun phaser all that time you built up your superior pvp experience. I bet you use one as first attack weapon even with your sniper rifle in the belt ready for when the expose hits.
You're really obsessed with stun pistols; they aren't that great.

I sometimes use a stun pistol with my Tac officer, but she's specced for pistol DPS so it works decently. Stun pistol is good either for 1-1 fights or for putting a hold on someone before they exploit a buddy. the problem is that the stun shot is such low damage that there is a very high chance of the target's shields regenerating before you land your next damaging shot.

I generally prefer dual pistols on my Tac officer. The look cool, but also an AOE expose with decent damage but no hold is usually more useful than a single target expose with a hold and crappy damage. You have a better chance of proccing an expose the more times you attempt it, so in Team vs. Team fights it's almost always better to use AOEs which have a chance of exposing multiple targets at once.

On my Engineer I don't bother with stun pistols at all; the damage just isn't good enough. Yeah, it ****es people off, but I'd rather kill my enemies than annoy them.

On both of my characters I usually live through the holds, even before the change to hypos. Holds mean your attacker has reduced DPS.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
03-26-2010, 11:50 AM
You misunderstand a few things Inktomi19d

let me clarify it. Rifle spamming not only hold you but it stuns you as well so someone spamming it in narrow corridors might keep you locked forvever, it serve no purpose unless they get lucky and get an expose but its kinda boring pvp, and when 5 people run in and do nothing else it makes boring matches.

people rifle spamm for two reasons either frustration or to get exposes for what used to be one shot kills (not anymore thankfully, least not allways)

same reason is the stun pistols used to keep people unable to move or do any actions until exposed, usually in combination with a few that use the back of their rifles at the same time.

when it comes to Weapon malfunction i think its one of very few abilities that have lower cooldown than duration (or equal) they prolly had a good reason for it but i fail to see it. 22 sec or as now 15 sec is very long time in a pvp heated battle and if your loaded with two guns (no melee) starting rifle spamm is your only option and that usually lead to the above situation.

its not a problem to live trough a hold, what is boring is to live trough 7-8 holds in a row since its the only thing you can do, the changes of simms to break out is good, but compared to cooldowns on most ground abilities 30 sec seam a bit much, but then again we have to consider healing effects. with lowered dps in general lowering healing stim cooldown might make batle way to long again. perhaps we need some special stimms designed to remove effects and not depend on the healing ones and give those a cooldown of 15 or 20 sec to bring them more in pair with cooldowns of abilities.

I dont want to remove abilities for the abilities of their own, i want to make the game more fun and create less situations that end in suicide spamming feast with no other purpose than to annoy the other side.

But in all honesty first step would probably to fix the very broken queue system and make crowd control abilities break on damage.

but your right in one thing tactical should be on top dps wise thats their forte, but its easier to get higher numbers on my science or engineer.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
03-26-2010, 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WUB
let me clarify it. Rifle spamming not only hold you but it stuns you as well so someone spamming it in narrow corridors might keep you locked forvever
Wrong. This game does have hold immunity timers. They don't do what you'd think because different holds seem to be on different timers, but rifle spam will not keep someone "stun locked". After you land one rifle melee hold on them, you won't be able to land another one right away.

My answer to rifle melee spammers is (depending on my weaponry)
a) Stun them and backpedal
b) Shoot them and backpedal
c) Rifle melee them right back until I get a hold on them, then backpedal and shoot them

Never get into a "rifle melee competition" where you both just spam back and forth. You should be backing away from people like this and shooting them as you go.

Rifle spammers used to annoy me because they killed me so often. These days they just annoy me because they're so stupid. You should kill them more often than they kill you. (Rifle melee spam is this game's "zergling rush" -- it works against the newbies and makes you look cool but when you get to pro level gameplay it's going to make you look like a fool.)


Regarding stun pistols, the main reason to use one is, of course, to delay a particular target. I use stun pistols sometimes when I'm outnumbered, to stun the lead player that's chasing me as I run away. It's also handy to pop someone as they come out of cover in the hopes your team can focus them down quickly.

That said, I rarely go for a stun pistol. There are better weapons to expose with if that's your primary goal, and better weapons to do DPS with if that's your goal. Stun pistols have a very specific, limited use. It's a good use but it's not a gun for every circumstance.


Regarding weapon malfunction -- the same kit that causes it is the same kit that cures it, so if your team has engineers you can counter weapon malfunction on a 1:1 basis. Better than 1:1 now that there are consumable cures.

When weapon malfunction really gets me down, though, I swap in a bat'leth. Once you're good with the bat'leth it's really not a terrible weapon. It's certainly better than standing around with a sparking gun. It takes practice to get good with the bat'leth, though, and you need to understand the combos.


I do think Weapon Malfunction should only break the special attacks, though, and let the player continue to do regular attacks. Or maybe it should double the weapon's cooldown timers but still allow it to fire. I'm just saying, it's not really an "OMGWTF" ability. Usually when people put weapons malfunction on me I just focus on my kit abilities or I run around trying to rifle butt everyone on their team.

Quote:
but your right in one thing tactical should be on top dps wise thats their forte, but its easier to get higher numbers on my science or engineer.
That seems...unlikely. My tactical has always been the #1 scorer on any ground PvP mission. In fact, I frequently outscore science officers and engineers when I'm using a bat'leth (for fun) and they're using rifles. You do need full ground combat training in the weapon of your choice, though.

The only people who outscore my tactical in damage dealt when I'm using rifles is another tactical, and that's rare enough.
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