Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
04-01-2010, 04:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucebleo
Erm why would it not? Sure they have different teams but erm they could pitch in and make new weapons to fix the loot tables OR even fix the darn ugly AP weapons that look as if the devs forgot to finish the models for them.

Or how about making more MK X purp gear for phasers and disruptors SEEING as the benefit of going for the other weap types are non existent?
But who's to say they aren't already working on those. Do you think it they stopped doing any C-Store stuff that all that would be fixed any sooner than Season two?

Since I don't have a Cryptic org chart I can't speak to how the teams are arranged. Usually you can't just grab people off of one team to put on another to make stuff happen quicker. Not in programming at least.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
04-01-2010, 04:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicFB
But who's to say they aren't already working on those. Do you think it they stopped doing any C-Store stuff that all that would be fixed any sooner than Season two?

Since I don't have a Cryptic org chart I can't speak to how the teams are arranged. Usually you can't just grab people off of one team to put on another to make stuff happen quicker. Not in programming at least.
Well I am just going by experience.....look at Season 1.

People said LOOOONG before it had any dev notes on it that they suspected it would not fix the lack of klingon content DESPITE the devs leading people to think that way at launch. People were right and it had an awful lot of fluff in it.

So that is where I draw it from. Experience. Of course you are right that there is no way of knowing 100% for sure about it BUT you could pretty much use that trump card and nerf the majority of the threads in this forum with that one so it's not really fair to do that as we are simply discussing are we not?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
04-01-2010, 04:19 AM
Quote:
As far as the content goes, let me ask you this. Do you really think if they stopped working on any C-store items that more content would get released sooner?
Yes. If it takes them any length of time to design a new bridge or ship variant theycan equally adjust the existing ones or add more environment and mission variables. The difference is that C Store is extra income. So it will take precedence. Unless of course they are denied putting those up for sale in the first place. (Until the game reaches a point where its a complete product as advertised).

Quote:
I have this image of Cryptic borg all over your engineering section.
Guess how many plasma conduits I would nerdsmash to get the Cryptic "Queen" :p

Quote:
All the other stuff in there is fine, but do remember we pay a monthly fee (or LT fee whichever) which we should get some of these things included for too.
Apparently the "new" stuff this month are things like:

- auto fire that was broken/missing to begin with

- fixing the incomplete exchange placeholder

- giving outfits that people paid for two months earlier

- making the trill available to klingons that was supposed to be available at launch as a preorder

- aid missions you dont warp out as soon as you get them

- fixing memory alpha casino crafting system when you bet a number of anomalies hoping to get the to
next tier.

- Difficulty that was fine on beta but broken ever since launch.

Did I leave anything out?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
04-01-2010, 04:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucebleo
Well I am just going by experience.....look at Season 1.

People said LOOOONG before it had any dev notes on it that they suspected it would not fix the lack of klingon content DESPITE the devs leading people to think that way at launch. People were right and it had an awful lot of fluff in it.

So that is where I draw it from. Experience. Of course you are right that there is no way of knowing 100% for sure about it BUT you could pretty much use that trump card and nerf the majority of the threads in this forum with that one so it's not really fair to do that as we are simply discussing are we not?

About Season 1. Yes, many people did believe it wouldn't fix the Klingon problem. I agree and I agreed back then. The lack of full Klingon PVE content is readily apparent. As far as the devs leading people on, that is strictly opinion based so I really can't address that. Again saying it had a lot of fluff is based on perspective and I can't really address that either. Yet, again though, you are mixing issue. Content production is not directly equal to MTs.

If it takes a developer a month to create new story missions for the Klingons and it only takes 2 hours to make a new uniform. How is him spending the downtime in between renderings or waiting on the code team to send over the latest build etc going to make the content come out faster? The truth is, is that it isn't. Now, if we were seeing a crap load of new items every week then sure I would say what you are getting at would be valid.
If you notice most of the stuff that is coming out on the C-Store is mostly art related stuff. The level designers and story writers and such are working on the meat and potatoes so to speak and this stuff has to be done before the art department gets it. Then I am sure it has to be sent back and forth till it is done. You just can't throw more people at the project and hope it completes faster.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
04-01-2010, 04:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tychus_Findley
Yes. If it takes them any length of time to design a new bridge or ship variant theycan equally adjust the existing ones or add more environment and mission variables. The difference is that C Store is extra income. So it will take precedence. Unless of course they are denied putting those up for sale in the first place. (Until the game reaches a point where its a complete product as advertised).
Like I was explaining to Bruce. The art department isn't typically involved in the process like that. The level designers and story writers have to create the latest build. It then goes to the art department and back and forth till it goes to tribble. (Not every company does that but it is the typical process.) So during all this waiting they create this fluff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tychus_Findley
Guess how many plasma conduits I would nerdsmash to get the Cryptic "Queen" :p
Oh the violence inherent in the system

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tychus_Findley
Apparently the "new" stuff this month are things like:

- auto fire that was broken/missing to begin with

- fixing the incomplete exchange placeholder

- giving outfits that people paid for two months earlier

- making the trill available to klingons that was supposed to be available at launch as a preorder

- aid missions you dont warp out as soon as you get them

- fixing memory alpha casino crafting system when you bet a number of anomalies hoping to get the to
next tier.

- Difficulty that was fine on beta but broken ever since launch.

Did I leave anything out?
Are you talking about space autofire? I agree to a point that these things should probably have been done before launch. In a sense that is a different topic all together. The point that I am trying to make with the OP is that MTs will benefit us and the game. It doesn't detract from the problems that needs to be solved but eliminating the C-store won't solve the problems either. If we accept the fact that they launched a framework of a game we need to be able to give them time to flesh it out. It won't happen over night. To be honest I think a season every three months is ambitious at best. Maybe they can pull it off. Who knows. I do expect though as they add more content the time between additions will get longer as there will be more to balance, to code etc.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
04-01-2010, 04:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicFB
I was discussing microtransactions with Commander Reed yesterday in a different thread. In said thread I mentioned that MTs (Microtransactions) would pretty much be the wave of the future. This got me to thinking about Microtransactions in general so I decided to see what is up with them overall.

This thread is for the discussions of MTs in general and how they relate to STO.

Personally, I am neither for nor against microtransactions. I see the benefit of each type of model. (Sub, F2P, MTs and combinations of all.) My purpose in giving this thread life is to discuss how the MTs help Cryptic in making STO a better game. I realize not everyone sees this the same as me and I have no intention of arguing that. I will debate my point but lets try to limit any frustrations.

Ok, lets establish a few things right off the bat. At the moment MTs are not massively in use at present in a lot of MMOs. However, I think this is going to change. I think we are going to start seeing more MMOs and game in general slowly add MTs. In fact this change has already started. For the moment, some MMOs use the MTs in small amounts, Blizzard pets etc. It is starting to be used in single player PC titles as well, such as Dragon Age (Return to Ostgar DLC) There was even talk by EA in putting in MTs for Battlefield Bad Company. (I don't know if they went through with it yet or will).

MTs are also slowly creeping up on the console world too. XBox live uses them and so does the Playstation Network. Games such as Wipeout HD and Rockband and Guitar hero all use MTs and the list goes on. So what does this mean right now? It means that MTs are starting to slowly enter into mainstream gaming. Need proof? How about the fact that Steam is now adding support for MTs. (http://www.geek.com/articles/games/v...rage-20100322/) Also there companies that do nothing but work with MTs. (Example: TrueFish http://www.livegamer.com/)

The debate on MTs goes beyond this forum. Even at the Games Developers Conference there was a heated discussion on MTs verses traditional models such as using subs. (There was no clear winner). So why is this such a hot topic? Here is part of the problem. Take SWG, came out in 2003 with a sub price of 14.99. Adjusted for inflation to today's dollars (2009) it becomes 17.44. Yet the standard sub price is still 15.00 dollars. It has not gone up with inflation but remained the same price for six years. What hasn't remained the same is the demand for better games. Better graphics, better gameplay the works. As each game is developed using a subscription model the price of the subs don't change but the development costs do.

In an earlier thread I used the Department of Labor statistics for the median income of a computer programmer in California as a base. (2006 then adjusted for inflation) The median income was 80k+. If we were to assume that there are 30 developers on the STO team you are looking at a sizable chunk of change every month. (In the other thread that 80K includes estimates on standard health care and insurance packages.) Does the currently estimates number of subs cover that cost. Sure it does. Yet, there other things to add into it. The energy consumption of the server farm, cooling for said server farm. Bandwidth costs, normal misc overhead costs. Salaries for sales reps, executives, marketing and all the things that go into that such as graphic printing etc. There is also rent and other things that have to come out of that monthly sub price. With 100K subs you are looking at approximately 1.5 million dollars a month. (Not counting lifers etc etc). That puts the margin on a per sub basis, very small.

So how does a company make up the difference? This is where the MTs come into play. Microtransactions allow the company to make money but provide a value only to the players who wants it. Let me use an example to help explain. Say a Art Dev is currently rendering a new project to go into an update. Rendering can take a long time depending on what is being rendered. During this time he can sit idle and wait or he can put that time to productive use for the company. While waiting for the other project to finish rendering he creates a new uniform. Over the next couple of days while haveing to endure downtime on the other project he tweeks it and finally it is done. What does he do with it? He could put it in the update but the interesting fact is not everyone is going to want or like it. So the company puts it on the MT store to let only the people who want it, purchase it.

The company would have to pay that developer for the down time anyway so why not let the developer work on something small that can give the players some value and the company make money off that previously unused downtime. Yet, this only addresses those with concerns that the company is just out for greed. It doesn't address the issue that some have that ALL content should be included in the sub price. That part is a little more complicated that it seems.

Regardless, you can't justify large ongoing development costs only on a subscription basis. Most companies no longer have the luxury of long development times and endless buckets of shareholder money to take the large risk on a new MMO. Lets face it, MMOs are risky. Many folks will no doubt point at Blizzard for part of this. Well take into account Blizzard owns and did own its own IP. ******** was theirs. There was no license fees, no approval processes outside the company. The didn't have to content with 40 years of background from various sources either. Even Bioware that now has the ST license can spend more money because they have the backing of the license holder. (LucasArts) Believe it or not SWG showed (Pre CU and NGE) that a Star Wars MMO was a viable investment. When you look back at the previous Star Trek games from Activision and Interplay you won't see that level of success in even the single player arena.

Where does that leave us. It leaves us with the fact that in order for Cryptic to maintain a healthy margin and improve STO they need the C-Store and the Microtransactions. Is it an absolute must? I don't know, I can't answer that. What I can say from what research I have done is that we will see more future content because of the C-store and not just for the C-Store. Also there are many companies that are looking at adding MTs in the future. Global Agenda is just one that is exploring the possibility. EA has already given serious thought to adding MTs. You are going to see more and more MTs as time goes on.
yeeaaah. I am not reading that. I will just disagree with you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
04-01-2010, 04:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucebleo
I was just looking at Face Of Mankind......it's a new MMO not long out of Beta just like STO.......it is free to play BUT you can go VIP and have more inv space, customizable living quarters and quite frankly it puts STO to shame. On just the initial observations it has unbelievably more depth than STO.

I just don't see how MT's can be that needed when you get some little indy game pop up that is quite frankly leagues ahead of anything Cryptic has done and can be played for free.
Lol...Face of Mankind. The game that started it's beta in 2004, sold retail copies in 2006 and was shut down by hackers for over a month causing it to be taken offline until it was recently re-released?

Great comparison.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
04-01-2010, 05:08 AM
Quote:
Are you talking about space autofire? I agree to a point that these things should probably have been done before launch. In a sense that is a different topic all together. The point that I am trying to make with the OP is that MTs will benefit us and the game. It doesn't detract from the problems that needs to be solved but eliminating the C-store won't solve the problems either. If we accept the fact that they launched a framework of a game we need to be able to give them time to flesh it out. It won't happen over night. To be honest I think a season every three months is ambitious at best. Maybe they can pull it off. Who knows. I do expect though as they add more content the time between additions will get longer as there will be more to balance, to code etc.
Eliminating the C store is not what I am asking for. Nor I muse that it will solve anything. I am simply stating that they should just lay off the C store stuff for now and fully focus on the game. 2 Hours here and there added together for all the stuff they keep forking out could have been used to improve on existing issues. I understand it takes time to develop but the tribble server had nothing new either for me to test. The C store is a distraction to them at this point. And it will cost them dearly if they carry on in this manner as people have already noticed the frequency of which the C store seems to get updates versus the actual game.

I am sorry but I am expecting better on a game reskinned over an existing pre-tested engine (from CO). They need to give an incentive for people to stay because empty promises and constantly delayed features is not it. Those "cosmetics" could be used to reassure us, but instead they choose to infuriate us.

I see their "April joke" becoming a self fulfilling prophecy minus the STO2 part if they dont start coughing up.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
04-01-2010, 05:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haldare
Lol...Face of Mankind. The game that started it's beta in 2004, sold retail copies in 2006 and was shut down by hackers for over a month causing it to be taken offline until it was recently re-released?

Great comparison.
No way really?

Damn.....that sucks......still it went through all that and yet it still has more depth than STO......how about that?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
04-01-2010, 05:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicFB
Now, I would be concerned and understandably upset if they were to, say put the new upcoming Klingon content on the C-Store. Or to release the Romulan faction as a C-Store addition. Those should come free.

...let me compare that to Xbox 360 DLC

What we get in STO is the Horse Armor-DLC from Oblivion.
-> http://www.joystiq.com/2009/04/01/ob...ch-is-doubled/


What i want is GTA4 - The Lost and the Damned -> real improvement of the game for a fair price.
-> http://uk.xboxlive.ign.com/articles/947/947252p1.html
"Rockstar isn't dicking around with horse armor."
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