Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Hey everyone! I just wanted to come in and let you know of a little glitch weíve recently discovered. This will be a longish post, so bear with me, and Iíll try and make sure to highlight all the really important bits for anyone who wants to cut through the fat and get to the real issue here.

First of all, let me reassure you that everything is actually functioning as intended. That being said however, weíve found an error in the tooltips that inaccurately represents the damage resistance values on items and abilities.

Let me restate for clarity: The tooltips for damage resistance are incorrect, but the actual values themselves are correct.

Specifically, these values are appearing as a percentage, when they should be appearing as points. As an example on how this is actually causing an error, if you have an item or ability that represents itself as granting 10% damage resistance, it actually is granting more like 9.1% damage resistance.

We have a fix for this in the works, and your tooltips should be displaying properly very soon. The fix will not have any actual effect on ANY items or abilities; it will merely correct the display error so they will accurately show you the bonus you are receiving.

Until that fix goes in though, Iíve been given this formula conversion for anyone interested in determining the actual values:

1-(1/(1+Reported Tooltip Value)) = Actual Damage Resistance from Item

For example, if you have an item that says you get 10% damage resistance, calculate as follows:

1-(1/(1+0.1)) = .090909 or about 9.1% Actual DR

*note, 10% in this formula is being represented by its decimal equivalent of 0.1

Notice that there are diminishing returns on damage resistance. As a result for example, if you have a total bonus of 50% damage resistance, and get a buff that adds 10%, you do not end up with 60% damage resistance, but more like 51.8%.

The diminishing returns obviously have very little effect on lower values, becoming more and more influential the higher your bonus gets. The result of this is that there is, in effect, a damage resistance cap of 75% - that being said however, this is not exactly a hard cap, but rather that the closer you get to 75%, the more insignificant the bonus youíll get will become.

Itís like the Warp Scale. Warp 10 isnít technically an impossible value. It is simply impossible to achieve realistically, as the closer you get, the more insignificant your increases in speed become.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
04-01-2010, 02:18 PM
Thanks for the clarification, Phoxe. Some of this we deduced, but still, the clarification and coming tweaks to the UI are appreciated.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
04-01-2010, 02:23 PM
I hope that the final solution includes both pieces of information in the UI:

ResistanceName: Points (%Resist)

For example, on the ship/character screen:
Phaser: 200 (67%)

Or on an item:
+10 phaser resistance (+9.1%)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
04-01-2010, 02:27 PM
one thing i have always been curious about is why do developers use deminishing returns? if anyone knows a blog or article about this and can hook me up with a link that would be great. or maybe a developer at cryptic could write something about it clarifying the reasoning behind it.

anyway, thanks for the info its greatly appreciated.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
04-01-2010, 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mineria
one thing i have always been curious about is why do developers use deminishing returns? if anyone knows a blog or article about this and can hook me up with a link that would be great. or maybe a developer at cryptic could write something about it clarifying the reasoning behind it.

anyway, thanks for the info its greatly appreciated.
Example ... in WoW. before they brought in diminishing returns on dodge, a rogue tanked Illidan with 104. whatever % dodge. They soon put that baby to bed.

You should never be able to fully cap something like that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
04-01-2010, 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anuhart
Example ... in WoW. before they brought in diminishing returns on dodge, a rogue tanked Illidan with 104. whatever % dodge. They soon put that baby to bed.

You should never be able to fully cap something like that.
yes, i understand that but why diminishing returns, why not a cap?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
04-01-2010, 04:35 PM
Players hate caps. they hate to be showed, "here, this is how far you get get...period."

Instead, they hide the caps in diminishing returns. SO instead of telling someone you cant do this, you just show them how very unlikely and illogical (and ultimately when you get down to the very very small .001% gains you will end up with there is a cap in there....somewhere.) it is to get past a certain number.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
04-01-2010, 04:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoxe
Itís like the Warp Scale. Warp 10 isnít technically an impossible value. It is simply impossible to achieve realistically, as the closer you get, the more insignificant your increases in speed become.
That's a singularity, which is in fact technically impossible

It would be more accurate to say that it is meaningless; the function that translates warp scale into actual speed is simply not defined on values less than 1, or greater than or equal to 10. For an example that is easier for people without higher maths training to understand:

Quote:
I have one apple. I give two apples away. Now I have -1 apples.
The last sentence here is meaningless in exactly the same way. "I have X apples" is not defined on values less than zero - it does not describe anything.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
04-01-2010, 04:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedensuscg View Post
Players hate caps. they hate to be showed, "here, this is how far you get get...period."

Instead, they hide the caps in diminishing returns. SO instead of telling someone you cant do this, you just show them how very unlikely and illogical (and ultimately when you get down to the very very small .001% gains you will end up with there is a cap in there....somewhere.) it is to get past a certain number.
ok so players are too stupid to understand that they are both caps? got it thanks.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
04-01-2010, 04:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoxe
Hey everyone! I just wanted to come in and let you know of a little glitch weíve recently discovered. This will be a longish post, so bear with me, and Iíll try and make sure to highlight all the really important bits for anyone who wants to cut through the fat and get to the real issue here.

First of all, let me reassure you that everything is actually functioning as intended. That being said however, weíve found an error in the tooltips that inaccurately represents the damage resistance values on items and abilities.

Let me restate for clarity: The tooltips for damage resistance are incorrect, but the actual values themselves are correct.

Specifically, these values are appearing as a percentage, when they should be appearing as points. As an example on how this is actually causing an error, if you have an item or ability that represents itself as granting 10% damage resistance, it actually is granting more like 9.1% damage resistance.

We have a fix for this in the works, and your tooltips should be displaying properly very soon. The fix will not have any actual effect on ANY items or abilities; it will merely correct the display error so they will accurately show you the bonus you are receiving.

Until that fix goes in though, Iíve been given this formula conversion for anyone interested in determining the actual values:

1-(1/(1+Reported Tooltip Value)) = Actual Damage Resistance from Item

For example, if you have an item that says you get 10% damage resistance, calculate as follows:

1-(1/(1+0.1)) = .090909 or about 9.1% Actual DR

*note, 10% in this formula is being represented by its decimal equivalent of 0.1

Notice that there are diminishing returns on damage resistance. As a result for example, if you have a total bonus of 50% damage resistance, and get a buff that adds 10%, you do not end up with 60% damage resistance, but more like 51.8%.

The diminishing returns obviously have very little effect on lower values, becoming more and more influential the higher your bonus gets. The result of this is that there is, in effect, a damage resistance cap of 75% - that being said however, this is not exactly a hard cap, but rather that the closer you get to 75%, the more insignificant the bonus youíll get will become.

Itís like the Warp Scale. Warp 10 isnít technically an impossible value. It is simply impossible to achieve realistically, as the closer you get, the more insignificant your increases in speed become.
this question is not entirely relevant to the resistances... but more to do with the way things are calculated...

Why aren't you using this type of formula for ship manoeuvrability?
as it is right now, one RCS console has more effect for an escort ship (that in all honesty does not really need it) than it does for a cruiser (that does in all honesty need it).
(notice, I said 'one RCS'.. every RCS after that will have diminishing returns compared to the first one)...
end result: escorts can become spinning tops of death (death blossom?), and a cruiser will always be slugging, no matter what you do.
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