Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
04-11-2010, 10:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpieri View Post
I can easily bypass your shields with my fed escort, I can drop around 75 power currently and if I decied to pay an outrageous amount for the grandfathered sci consoles I can increase that even further. The ability is called Beam: Target Sheilds III and its much more accessible on the Fed side then on the Klingons. Sadly, my Klingon can only do around 50 with BTS II. FBP, VM, Sub Nuc - they will be get adjusted - they are not fun - total agreement here.
Sorry it took so long to respond to Serpieri's post. I have Beam: Target Shields. I've used it many many times. When you use it, the opponent's shields will drop before any hull damage is done. This is just plan hull damage, while the shield stays 100% full.

For more on this, read Caligulaa's post "What is being used to massively by-pass shields in pvp" posted on 03-31-2010, 02:13 AM.

This post has been sidetracked - by me, I take the blame. All I want to say here is that PvP needs an overhaul. On ground missions there shouldn't be any "magic" one shot kills with shields and armor. If the shields are down and health is 50% I can see it, but not right thru full shields. I can't see anyone dealing out 1700 points of damage with one shot. In space missions there shouldn't be a 45 second hold. I'm sorry but that's what I feel. I have VM3 on my RA5 science guy and I hate using it (even though my holds are no where near 45 secs).

Weapons and abilities need to be balanced evenly on both sides. I can see a 5 second hold in space. That would be a big advantage, as long as the enemy doesn't have the ability to do 40,000 points of damage in that 5 seconds. I would think that people would rather have a long fight than a 3 second massacre. I've been in ground fights with Klingons that lasted for 5 minutes and they were amazing. My heart was racing and it was so much fun. I've had them in space too. I think that would make the game more enjoyable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
04-12-2010, 01:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
They probablly getting free fast due to Pattern Omega.

And Cryptic claims to be working on the balancing, but really they didn't put any thought into having two sets of values for PvP and PvE. But really, given their solutions so far, it seems its going to make problems worse.
The Only thing that is active for me during VM is Science Team so Omega isn't available at that time. At least not on my Klingon.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
04-12-2010, 04:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brainfacer View Post
Do you mean your science team isn't clearing the effect?

The klingon generally is going to break free, because every klingon has science team now because hey, Viral Matrix is kind of nasty and you've got to counter it. (There's several nasty ways to make it stick, of course. Mostly because science team only clears one debuff, so vm + jam sensors or vm + another vm + another frigg'n vm means you're still held. And, you know, subnucleonic beam. >_<)
science team will remove ONE debuff. if they hit you with vm then follow it up with jam sensors andyou hit science team - you're still vm'd

however bop pilots can get that omega III thing, making them immune to all cc

maybe one day cryptic will understand balance, and that a short time to kill makes pvp pathetic
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
04-12-2010, 09:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by booker9172 View Post
This post has been sidetracked - by me, I take the blame. All I want to say here is that PvP needs an overhaul. On ground missions there shouldn't be any "magic" one shot kills with shields and armor. If the shields are down and health is 50% I can see it, but not right thru full shields. I can't see anyone dealing out 1700 points of damage with one shot.
There is no "magic button" in ground fights. Both sides have access to the same kits, weapons, armor and skills and the class balance in ground is actually rather good imo. One hit kills happen due to exposes and while theres tons of people complaining about expose kills its actually adding a tactical component.

The only magic there is the "G" button and that one you have on your keyboard as well. You see an exposed enemy, you press G and fire your sniper rifle and gone he is.

Theres several ways to avoid beeing one hit killed...
- don't let the enemy flank you, its your fault if you let them shoot in your back!
- don't stand, crouching and rolling helps tons.
- if your exposed take cover and wait until its gone before facing the enemy again, or let a sci/medic help you.
- slide around corners instead of running in, facing multiple opponents the same time easily results in a quick death.
- move together with a team and have them cover your back..
- use engineer deployments for cover (assuming you have them or your team has engineers)
- certain ground traits help with survival on ground quite a bit.. if you went all space, it was your choice.
- oh and if you aren't a ground build by skills... don't expect to win against others that are.

On a side note.. since people complain that much about statis/expose/exploit magic kills all the time, those sci debuff/dot expose abilitys have just a 10% chance to expose each.. takes multiple seconds to apply em all and requires some luck too. I've a tac and a sci and i kill easily faster on my tac without having to hope for luck on an expose at all..

Pvp don't need an overhaul.. in fact what they did to space so far in terms of overhaul was rather devastating, its escort online now with all the crazy dps increases.. i wish they would stop touching pvp and rather fix the queue issues first, those bad spawn points that make people stuck in doors (facility map) and the other bad spawn point in the space domination map and maybe add some auto teaming and faction broadcast channels - those are the real issues in pvp imo.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
04-12-2010, 12:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikiy
Pvp don't need an overhaul.. in fact what they did to space so far in terms of overhaul was rather devastating, its escort online now with all the crazy dps increases.. i wish they would stop touching pvp and rather fix the queue issues first, those bad spawn points that make people stuck in doors (facility map) and the other bad spawn point in the space domination map and maybe add some auto teaming and faction broadcast channels - those are the real issues in pvp imo.
Yes, you are right. It is all about Escorts. And also the abuse of abilities (especially science abilities). Thats why Cryptic is nerfing them, which will surely put a dampener on PvE.

In fact, much of these troubles were noticed back in Closed Beta, but Cryptic didn't listen because they had to rush out the game.

Escorts were too powerful (and even more so).
Cruisers have weak shields and have to rely on RSP to stay in the game, and their firepower is pretty mediocre.
Science Abilities were too much for PvP.

Klingons lacking stronger foreward shields and weak rear shields (as per canon).

And of course the overuse of Heavy cannons, which supposed to be only carried by Battlecruisers.


With Ground PvP, it was more of a Halo / FPS arena, than an MMO PVP. So Cryptic has a long way to go to make PvP actually viable.

Also it doesn't help with skewing PvP with Marks of Honor either, where PVErs come to PvP, just for these things so they can get geared up faster.

So Cryptic has a long way to go.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
04-12-2010, 02:22 PM
Quote:
FBP does hull damage but it also does shield damage too.
No. It doesn't. It will, when the patch hits, but right now it does 100% of its damage directly to the attacker's hull.

How do you expect your complaints to be taken seriously when you can't even demonstrate that you understand the mechanics of the game you're complaining about?

If you're going to complain about FvK balance issues, you probably need to complain about the things that are actually different. Universal BOff stations on the Bird of Prey. Cannons on Klingon Battlecruisers. Carriers. The almighty Cloak. Complain about those if you must, but stop wasting our time with stupid crap like the OP's pathetic "Klingon VM lasts way longer than mine, nerf Klingons" idiocy. That's what it is; idiocy.

There are real balance problems, of which Cloak is the most obvious example. But Klingons don't have magic hull-killing beams, their holds don't magically last longer than Fed equivalents, and they don't have uber survival skills that make their ships super awesome compared to Fed versions. Back up your complaints with screenshots, video, or data. Don't just ***** and hope to be taken seriously.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
04-12-2010, 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
Yes, you are right. It is all about Escorts. And also the abuse of abilities (especially science abilities). Thats why Cryptic is nerfing them, which will surely put a dampener on PvE.
Theres no abuse of abilities, specialising and maxing stuff out is perfectly legal in games. The reason why they will nerf them is the huge amount of whining about them from people that can't handle it. While the subnuc change is most welcome by me, i think they heavily overdo it on the other two.

Quote:
With Ground PvP, it was more of a Halo / FPS arena, than an MMO PVP. So Cryptic has a long way to go to make PvP actually viable.
STO only has 3 classes and rather few abilities compared to other MMO's and thus the ground pvp imo needs to be the way it is or it would be very boring. In fact its the FPS parts of it that makes it fun for me like flanking shots, having to run/roll for cover when exposed and all that.. thats also what makes it require a lot of teamplay.. and in the end its teamplay that makes it addictive for me (when playing with the right peeps).

If they try to turn it into a wow like pvp it will be a lot more boring as sto doesn't feature enough classes/abilitys for that to be entertaining.. be carefull what you wish for, the game (mostly pve) is already boring enough.. at least for me its just the pvp that keeps me here at all atm.

Quote:
Also it doesn't help with skewing PvP with Marks of Honor either, where PVErs come to PvP, just for these things so they can get geared up faster.
True. Although worth to mention its their choice to go there, they could as well just do the exploration for it and avoid the grief for themself / their teammates and their enemies as well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
04-13-2010, 01:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildfyre010 View Post
No. It doesn't. It will, when the patch hits, but right now it does 100% of its damage directly to the attacker's hull.

How do you expect your complaints to be taken seriously when you can't even demonstrate that you understand the mechanics of the game you're complaining about?

If you're going to complain about FvK balance issues, you probably need to complain about the things that are actually different. Universal BOff stations on the Bird of Prey. Cannons on Klingon Battlecruisers. Carriers. The almighty Cloak. Complain about those if you must, but stop wasting our time with stupid crap like the OP's pathetic "Klingon VM lasts way longer than mine, nerf Klingons" idiocy. That's what it is; idiocy.

There are real balance problems, of which Cloak is the most obvious example. But Klingons don't have magic hull-killing beams, their holds don't magically last longer than Fed equivalents, and they don't have uber survival skills that make their ships super awesome compared to Fed versions. Back up your complaints with screenshots, video, or data. Don't just ***** and hope to be taken seriously.
I think a lot of the differences you mentions between the Klingon and the Federation faction are mostly making balance issues in other areas far worse.

1) Universal BO stations are "bad" when certain skills are more powerful than others or stack too good. Without universal slots, people have to mix their abilities. Even if a power is "OP", they can have only a limited number of such powers. Some powers combinations and power-stackings might effectively be impossible without BO stations. But if the powers were balanced against each other and their stacking would work in a sensible manner, this problem wouldn't be big.

2) Cannons on Cruisers are only powerful because the DPS gains from Cannons in generally are probably too high, and the skills boosting them in combination make things worse, too. Also, the maneuverability differences between Fed and Klingon Cruisers are significant, so even giving Dual Cannons to Fed Cruisers would be useless as they couldn't bring them to bear while Klingon Cruisers can. Fixing the skills and the weapon istelf would do a lot to lessen this effect.

3) Cloak is so problematic because bringing down an opponent can be very fast due to the high amounts of damage one can inflict in a short period of time - and you can combine "lock-down" abilities (like Subneclonic Beam or Viral Matrix) If this damage was less and insufficient to bring down an opponent within the first few seconds, counter-abilities/heals would help, maneuvering would help. People would have reaction time. Also, the Federation bonuses to shield and hull would actually matter. In essence, cloak would work just fine if you would need 15-30 seconds to bring down a cruiser that doesn't fight back.

There is still a danger in several powers after such a fix - they could become too powerful. If Healing powers give out more healing than typical DPS gives. If Reverse Shield Polarity and similar damage negation skills recharge too quickly or last too long so that even sustained firepower doesn't bring the shields down.

What would be required here is a solid mathematical framework describing the influence of energy settings, powers, and recharge times to analyze their effects.

The big challenge is that the system is still very complex. You have
- Shield Hit Points.
- Shield Regeneration
- Bleedthrough
- Damage Resistance
- Hull Points
- Hull Repair
- Weapon Damage
- Weapon Procs
- Weapon Firearcs
- Energy Levels
- Various Power Effects
- Power Duration
- Power Cooldown
- Turning Rate

Actually "making sense" of how they all interact is very difficult. That "solid mathematical framework" is a dream that can never come through. So play-testing and some guesstimations will have to do. It could also help to balance certain aspects as a group. That's bascially what hey are trying to do with weapon damage and fire arcs, for example. But it might not take into account other important factors, like turning rate, or at least not well enough.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
04-13-2010, 11:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
With Ground PvP, it was more of a Halo / FPS arena, than an MMO PVP. So Cryptic has a long way to go to make PvP actually viable.

Also it doesn't help with skewing PvP with Marks of Honor either, where PVErs come to PvP, just for these things so they can get geared up faster.

So Cryptic has a long way to go.
lol nice, so since its not standerd mmo pvp it needs to be changed? i like how it is, its fun and fast paced and uses tactics to stay out of fire, go play the default if your not enjoying it rather then complaining that its new. just beacuse its different does not mean it needs an overhaul. as for space i havent done it much so no comment there

also the marks are for pvp and pve so that you can do what you perfer. if you dont want to
pvp just dont do it, it will take longer but you still will get the stuff, if gear is that important then man up. they are trying not to pigion hole you onto doing one thing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
04-13-2010, 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpieri View Post
Another player complaining about PVP tools/mechanics that both sides have access too but it somehow has to be the KLINGON's fault. I'll have to remember that the next time I get sub nuced for 45 secs, VM spammed, and getting hit by FBP that litterally can rip my ship in half but thats just the tip of the iceberg.

The difference is simple - we klingons have learned to counter most of these abilities - some of which still has no couter except for a good team that will keep you breathing despite being disabled/unable to act, and so on.
Honestly, it doesn't matter if you're Fed or Klink, in a game where ship combat is supposed to be modeled after "tall ship combat" we're vaporizing hull and shields on an enemy ship in 6 - 7 seconds. It doesn't matter how your ship is configured or what your loadout is or how good you are at countering the enemy's tactics. That's the true imbalance, not somebody complaining that his viral matrix doesn't last as long as somebody else's.
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