Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Quote:
TL,DR
In T5 Space PVP, on average, Klingons deal 50% more damage and score 50% more points than Feds. Klingons won 24 out of 30 sampled rounds, or 75%.
There seems to be a problem here.
I've been doing some data mining lately. For the last few weeks, I've been taking screenshots of the end game report of every Space PVP match that I've been in.

Since I'm a Federation RA5 with a life, I don't play the game that often, so it's taken me a while to get a large enough sample to be useful.

I collected results from 30 PVP rounds. My first recorded match was on March 10, at 12:24. My last recorded match was April 5, at 19:25. 19 of the rounds were "Salvage" Capture & Hold rounds, the other 11 were "Cracked Planetoid" or "Solar Wind" Arena rounds.

These are the results of my analysis.
  • For a total of 30 rounds, the Federation team won 6 times, and the Klingon team won 24 times. The Klingons won 75% of their engagements.
  • The difference in damage between the top two players in each round, collected from all rounds and averaged, was 115,109 damage in favour of the Klingons.
  • Averaging the damage from all 30 sampled rounds, Federation players deal 76,798 damage per round, while Klingon players deal 146,366 damage per round, a difference of over 50%.
  • Averaging the points from all 30 sampled rounds, Federation players scored 3.98 points per round, whereas Klingon players scored 7.48 points per round, a difference of over 50%.
  • The highest recorded total damage by any player was a Klingon player who dealt 684,422 damage in one round. (Anecdotally, I have been told that this is not a high number.)
  • The highest-ranked Federation player in each round did more damage than the highest-ranked Klingon player in only 4 out of 30 rounds.
  • The total damage dealt by all Feds in a round exceeded the total damage dealt by all Klingons in a round in only 3 rounds. All 3 rounds were Salvage maps.
  • {Edit}The average Federation healing per round was 19,772.18, and the average Klingon healing per round was 24,288.24.
Please see the attached documents below for further information.

Apocrypha & Anecdotes (This is just IMO):
  • Klingons appear to favour a strategy of ambush or skirmish warfare, as Cryptic likely intended. They decloak at point blank range, open fire on a Federation player, and hope to kill him with an alpha strike before he has a chance to implement most of his bridge powers.
  • Typically, this strategy is implemented in such a way by Klingon teams as to provoke fragmentation of Federation teams. Different players will engage different targets. Each target will be too busy attempting to save themselves and return to try and assist other friendlies.
  • If it appears an engagement will end unfavourably, Klingons will immediately pop Evasive Maneuvers or Ramming Speed, move out of engagement range, and cloak to recuperate. This generally applies only to sub-Negh'var class vessels.
  • If Fed players engage in a similar action, it will likely end in death; without a cloak, and by themselves, they become easy targets.
  • The average Federation player's life expectancy, from notification that they are under fire to 0% hull, is typically less than fifteen seconds, and often less than ten seconds. I cannot prove this statistically, but casual observation supports this claim.
  • The exception to this life expectancy for Federation players is Reverse Shield Polarity. This ability will allow a Fed player to endure for the duration of the ability, plus approximately two to five seconds. After that, coordinated fire will destroy a Federation player quickly.
  • Conversely, Klingon life expectancy is considerably longer. I do not wish to speculate on exact numbers, but there is a significant difference.
  • Arena maps are deathtraps in PVP for Federation players. In one instance, even though Federation players outnumbered Klingon players 2:1, the Klingons were still victorious with a margin of 4 points. I have not won a single Arena map in 11 attempts.
  • In a stand up fight, Klingons are superior in damage dealing ability. Federation players are only able to win Salvage rounds because of Salvage rounds' reliance on alternate scoring mechanisms.
  • Conversations with other T5 Federation PVPers in Gamma Orionis have produced similar stories. I will not recall them here, as that would be hearsay; I'm sure they may speak for themselves, if they wish.
  • Critics would say that team coordination is of paramount importance, and I'm not disputing that. Teamwork is important. But I believe this data suggests that there are deciding factors beyond mere team coordination at work.

I do not wish to make normative statements about what should and should not be done to address this problem. I do wish to bring attention to the fact that there is, in fact, a significant issue with T5 PVP in its current incarnation, and suggest that steps be taken to address the problem. I enjoy this game, I'm a lifetime subscriber since the Open Beta. I have faith that these issues can be addressed.

You can download the XLS that I used to create this analysis from Google Docs at this link, if you wish to examine the data for yourself.

I realize the methodology here isn't perfect, nor do I claim it to be. This is the best analysis I could come up with given available data and time constraints, and I believe this data is of interest to PVPers in general. I will continue to collect data.

Graph #1: Total average points and total average damage, averaged from all rounds. Comparative, Fed vs. Klingon.
NB: Klingons' total average damage and points, from all rounds, were almost 50% greater than the Federation's total average damage and points, from all rounds.
Graph #2: Average points per round for 30 rounds, Feds versus Klingons.

Graph #3: Average damage per round for 30 rounds, Feds versus Klingons.
NB: On only three occasions, the Federation did more total damage than the Klingons. The second of those occasions has a margin of only 3,000 damage. Klingons do consistently more total damage per round, often by a considerable margin.
Graph #4: Average healing per round for 30 rounds, Feds versus Klingons.
{Edit} NB: I went back and added healing, as many of you suggested. However, there isn't much of a discernable pattern as there is with damage based on wins and losses. For the Federation wins, in 2 instances, the healing provided was greater than the Klingons. For the other four Federation wins, the amount of Klingon healing was superior.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
04-06-2010, 12:54 AM
First ..nice work, im sure it was alot of effort. But sadly a bit misleading. Since you didnt specify if it was pug vs premade, didnt determine the skill factor of each member, you cant extrapolate the other variables, such is dmg or "overpoweredness" to clarify what is the cause of the results.

In short, its like making of statistic of 30 soccer matches between lets say Barcelona to some 5th soccer league teams in some banana republic.

Also you did combine both cracked planetoid and salvage operations, which both have complete different playstyle. Kinda comparing apples with pears.

/critism off

But as i said, impressive work.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
04-06-2010, 01:09 AM
While your data gathering and lovely charts are impressive, I'm afraid you have a long way to go before convincing anyone.

First of all, in a PvP scenario, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of variables you have failed to consider. You have no control group. You have no baseline. You have a random sampling of 30 games you played. This is a poll, and a very minor sampling at best.

You yourself are a variable. You admit that you "don't play that much." You could be badly skewing the results with poor play. You could have played several organized groups in a row. Damage numbers are a poor indicator to draw any conclusion in this game, and you didn't even include healing.

The bottom line is all this data is meaningless. The only thing we can conclude from your data is that you were soundly beaten in a couple dozen games.

Sorry, I've know you've done some work, and I hate to be critical, but it's hard to draw anything conclusive from your data.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
04-06-2010, 01:11 AM
I commend your effort in accumulating empirical data to come to a more scientific based conclusion.

However I must point out several inaccuracies in your conclusions. Although some of your observations are correct, notably the Klingon ability to escape in case of unfavorable odds, and the Federation inability to do the same.

Submitted for review are the following videos taken during FvK Cracked Planetoid Matches

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNkzEuUsHME

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiaRB9HqyzI

As these videos will show, in a 5v5 Cracked Planetoid match, Federation players can break the 100K damage mark. While it is true that Klingons have broken 100K damage and done more damage points than their federation opponents, notice the final score. Federation wins both encounters.

While you could argue that such matches are not the standard, I will say that I could FRAPS every klingon match our fleet will play for a year, and there would be very few losses on our side.

The sad, ugly truth is that while Klingons do deal more damage than Federation players on average, damage is not everything. A player could rake up 600K damage in a round, but yield 0 kills.

Individual play is what is killing Federation, never mind the fact that many of them don't know their class. Just look at how much healing our cruisers are doing. If you use that as proof that klingons do more damage.... then yes, they do, why didn't they win?

Our Science officer did below 100K damage, was he slacking off? God no, he played a vital role, it just doesn't reflect on the damage board.

There is more to winning an encounter than damage done.

Klingons are not OP, and I invite anyone to quote me on that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
04-06-2010, 01:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalnar
First ..nice work, im sure it was alot of effort. But sadly a bit misleading. Since you didnt specify if it was pug vs premade, didnt determine the skill factor of each member, you cant extrapolate the other variables, such is dmg or "overpoweredness" to clarify what is the cause of the results.

In short, its like making of statistic of 30 soccer matches between lets say Barcelona to some 5th soccer league teams in some banana republic.

Also you did combine both cracked planetoid and salvage operations, which both have complete different playstyle. Kinda comparing apples with pears.
1. They're all just PVP maps that I happened to queue up for.
2. I'm not trying to extrapolate causes for the results. I'm just saying that there's something going wrong with PVP.
3. I'm not disputing that the skill levels can vary widely. In fact, I'm certain that they do. But I don't think that there is a massive skill disparity for all 30 rounds.
4. I only have 30 rounds to work with here, so far. Even straight up Salvage or straight up Arena, the results are still not promising.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otheym81 View Post
While your data gathering and lovely charts are impressive, I'm afraid you have a long way to go before convincing anyone.

First of all, in a PvP scenario, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of variables you have failed to consider. You have no control group. You have no baseline. You have a random sampling of 30 games you played. This is a poll, and a very minor sampling at best.

You yourself are a variable. You admit that you "don't play that much." You could be badly skewing the results with poor play. You could have played several organized groups in a row. Damage numbers are a poor indicator to draw any conclusion in this game, and you didn't even include healing.

The bottom line is all this data is meaningless. The only thing we can conclude from your data is that you were soundly beaten in a couple dozen games.

Sorry, I've know you've done some work, and I hate to be critical, but it's hard to draw anything conclusive from your data.
Most of these matches were spread over three weeks. The same names appear sometimes, but far from all the time. I can send you the screenshots if you'd like.
I'm not that godawful a player, I tended to stay in the top two or three in damage dealt on most of the matches. Even if I'm terrible, am I truly the deciding factor in all 24 losses? That's a bit of a stretch.

It's not 'meaningless'. That's a bit far to go. There's a problem, here. Even in an informal poll, I wouldn't expect the results to be so skewed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ipigi
I commend your effort in accumulating empirical data to come to a more scientific based conclusion.

However I must point out several inaccuracies in your conclusions. Although some of your observations are correct, notably the Klingon ability to escape in case of unfavorable odds, and the Federation inability to do the same.

Submitted for review are the following videos taken during FvK Cracked Planetoid Matches

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNkzEuUsHME

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiaRB9HqyzI

As these videos will show, in a 5v5 Cracked Planetoid match, Federation players can break the 100K damage mark. While it is true that Klingons have broken 100K damage and done more damage points than their federation opponents, notice the final score. Federation wins both encounters.

While you could argue that such matches are not the standard, I will say that I could FRAPS every klingon match our fleet will play for a year, and there would be very few losses on our side.

The sad, ugly truth is that while Klingons do deal more damage than Federation players on average, damage is not everything. A player could rake up 600K damage in a round, but yield 0 kills.

Individual play is what is killing Federation, never mind the fact that many of them don't know their class. Just look at how much healing our cruisers are doing. If you use that as proof that klingons do more damage.... then yes, they do, why didn't they win?

Our Science officer did below 100K damage, was he slacking off? God no, he played a vital role, it just doesn't reflect on the damage board.

There is more to winning an encounter than damage done.

Klingons are not OP, and I invite anyone to quote me on that.
I know that Feds can break 100k damage. In many of the rounds, particularly Salvage rounds, even I broke 100k damage. But in matches like Arena, the Feds never stayed alive long enough to do that kind of damage. It kind of messes up the average.

Even when, in Arena matches, we formed up into teams immediately, it all went horribly wrong and we all died. A lot. Usually, fifteen times in a row without making a dent. You're absolutely right, your kinds of matches that you show in your videos are not the norm. I've never had a match like that, not once, not ever. If my team has a ventrilo server that they're all coordinating on, they don't tell me about it. Typically, there is zero communication on a fed team.

I know it's possible for a fed team to rack up tons of damage, and no kills. But in maps like Arena, kills are the way to win, and the kills and points have to come from someone.

Individual play is kind of the norm for the Feds. Like I say, I'm not sure how to deal with this problem. But there's a problem.

The sentiment amongst Fed players that I talk to is that 'T5 PVP sux'. I'm at least trying to quantify why.

I kind of expected to get flamed up one side and down the other. I'm just going to say that there's a problem, and leave it at that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
04-06-2010, 01:49 AM
I applaud ur efforts to examine why indeed Fed players get their butts kicked on a regular basis.

One of the defining markers I totally miss in ur results is teamwork.
- How did the Feds work together on all those trial maps? Why didn't u "casually obeserve" that?
- How were the Klingons working together?
- On Salvage, a Fedball moving from one point to another with mixed ships is near unbeatable, only way to stop the Fedball is to lure some away with BoP's. This does not happen automatically, orders need to be given to BoP captains, and they LISTEN. Why? TEAMWORK.

Yes, Klingons win most of the time, because of it. BUT, I can garanty you, if a Pug Klingon group plays a premade group on ANY map, the Feds are most likely to win.

This is not a case of doing more damage, or being overpowered, it is all a matter of skill and tactics.

I'm not flaming you btw, I can understand ur reasons for wanting to research this, but in all fairness, the best PvP players on STO play Klingon, why? They love to win, and playing with experienced PvP players saves you the heartattack out of frustration when u see the "teamwork" of most Pug Feds groups on ANY given map.

So;
- pick ur team wisely, with a good mix of ships/classes
- use Ventrillo or teamspeak
- learn from ur mistakes, adapt ur BO skills accordingly
- and lastly, what most top Fed PvP players do these days if u can't beat em, join em ^^
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
04-06-2010, 02:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurianNL View Post
I applaud ur efforts to examine why indeed Fed players get their butts kicked on a regular basis.

One of the defining markers I totally miss in ur results is teamwork.
- How did the Feds work together on all those trial maps? Why didn't u "casually obeserve" that?
- How were the Klingons working together?
- On Salvage, a Fedball moving from one point to another with mixed ships is near unbeatable, only way to stop the Fedball is to lure some away with BoP's. This does not happen automatically, orders need to be given to BoP captains, and they LISTEN. Why? TEAMWORK.

Yes, Klingons win most of the time, because of it. BUT, I can garanty you, if a Pug Klingon group plays a premade group on ANY map, the Feds are most likely to win.

This is not a case of doing more damage, or being overpowered, it is all a matter of skill and tactics.

I'm not flaming you btw, I can understand ur reasons for wanting to research this, but in all fairness, the best PvP players on STO play Klingon, why? They love to win, and playing with experienced PvP players saves you the heartattack out of frustration when u see the "teamwork" of most Pug Feds groups on ANY given map.

So;
- pick ur team wisely, with a good mix of ships/classes
- use Ventrillo or teamspeak
- learn from ur mistakes, adapt ur BO skills accordingly
- and lastly, what most top Fed PvP players do these days if u can't beat em, join em ^^
1. I did, they didn't. Like I said before, the teamwork was basically nonexistent. Even if we did form a team up, there wasn't much actual teamwork happening. Even if we stayed in a big group, they'd just pick us off.
2. The klingons used pretty consistent strategies, which I talked about. Whether they were working as a group or lone wolfs was pretty hard to tell.
3. The fedball happened pretty rarely, unfortunately. The six wins I had up there were courtesy of a so-called 'fedball' yes.

I never get to pick a 'team', as such. It's just queue up randomly for an instance, and hope for the best. And I'm never rolling with people enough to get a vent server from anyone. This isn't about me getting my ass handed to me, Cryptic wisely created a system whereby even the losers still get rewarded. But you know, I can't be the only person who's annoyed at getting ****trained by T5 Klingons.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
04-06-2010, 09:24 AM
PhoenixTril, we're not trying to flame you, just trying to point out that damage is not everything.

If you noticed in one of my videos, Stingray rakes up over 200k damage in a 9 minute match but only gets 1 kill while I rake up 150K damage and almost 200k healing.

You have 30 samples to look at, can you tell me how many times feds broke 100k healing in a cracked planetoid arena map? You dont have to be in a premade to break 100k healing.

By the way, this is all hull healing, shields heals from Extend Shields, Transfer Shield Power and Science Teams are not counted towards that total.

Salvage Operations Skew results. A salvage op can run for 10 minutes or it can run for half an hour. Inflated damage values are expected, especially if Klingons are not particularly in a hurry to capture points.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
04-06-2010, 09:38 AM
I've been playing some fvf and fvk and the teams that are randomly given to me are quite poor.. its sometimes 4escort and a cruser(who I suppose is only healing himself).

Ppl who play crusers or sci ships should sometime consider trying to be a "healer" basicly your roll should be looking at the health bars and fire/weapon power should be less focused on.

I've actually done this without speccing for it with my klingon engineer.

And then alot of ppl need to really understand how extend shields and how long range hazard emitters have, because moving the healer to your /bop/escort is sometimes just aweful.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
04-06-2010, 09:48 AM
And beside, cracked planetoid doesnt show anything. If your teams lacks science captain to sensor scan, you will all die to the pigeons of science. That will screw up the results also.

There is basically no way to statistically prove something, in enviroment with so many variables, and with no way to clarify skill-factor of each person in each mazch.
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