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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
04-06-2010, 12:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ipigi
There are more things in life than DPS.
I would have had a better reply.. But really what is the point. Almost every thread talks about how DPS is to OP now, and Shields/Hulls don't matter. Just glad a lot of feds think like you. Wait, no i don't. It's why these forums are plagued with DPS is OP and needs to be NERFED.

Players ignore tanks, if you ever played a Klink, about the biggest thing we talk/type about is who is flying cruisers. After fed dps is dead, there is nothing stopping the win.

it's why the score goes like this

0/3 - Dead fed dps
0/5 - Unorganized Fed responce
0/7 - Buffalo Bill feds trying to make a point
0/10 - fed regroup caught a few coming from spawn points
0/15 - no morale fed just don't care anymore
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
04-06-2010, 01:54 PM
Here my statistic:
In the last 30 games played we won 29, as FEDs.
We outhealed our enemies by 500% and scored in average 11 more points then them
T4 PvP in a cruiser

This is true data, but it still doesn't say anything about faction balance or? I was simply lucky finding a team you could name as premade after we fought 5+ games together, switching only 1-2 guys over the course or the games. 2 cruisers with 2 extend shields each were the key, together with 2 escorts dealing the damage. It was not even close, we slaughtered everything and saved everyone on our side.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
04-06-2010, 02:04 PM
I really like the OP's idea of doing some research, how ever my dear OP (no flaming or what so ever):

1: i have played against Premade Fed groups where PUG klingon's were bleeding and taking of as scared little puppies (Fleets with Ventrillo for instance) .
2: Also, been in Klingon PUG's where we smashed Federation premade groups all around the field.
3. Damage doesn't say much, winning the match does (eg federation wins, but Klingons does moest damage, i saw it)
4: Where there is damage is also...healing. I didn't see that ? I have seen matches where some ships had insane high healing (yes, most of the time federation ships)

So, the data is not coherent (?), there are a lott more factors in play then your data of 30 matches. i could do the same and, by accident, play against a PvP fleet with premade groups and the data would be totally different and i can suggest that federation is totally OP and need to be nerfed. (for instance !) not saying it is so.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
04-06-2010, 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bostish
I would have had a better reply.. But really what is the point. Almost every thread talks about how DPS is to OP now, and Shields/Hulls don't matter. Just glad a lot of feds think like you. Wait, no i don't. It's why these forums are plagued with DPS is OP and needs to be NERFED.

Players ignore tanks, if you ever played a Klink, about the biggest thing we talk/type about is who is flying cruisers. After fed dps is dead, there is nothing stopping the win.

it's why the score goes like this

0/3 - Dead fed dps
0/5 - Unorganized Fed responce
0/7 - Buffalo Bill feds trying to make a point
0/10 - fed regroup caught a few coming from spawn points
0/15 - no morale fed just don't care anymore
DPS is not my main worry in matches. I leave that to the escorts. That doesn't mean I don't shoot at things, just that, as I cruiser, I don't fool myself into thinking I can out-dps an escort on the final score.

Matches usually go like this for me :

5/0 - Klinks cry foul and accuse us of using exploits
10/0 - Massive Klink Rage quits
15/0 - Fed Wins. I end the match with a respectable 150-200k DPS and 150K-200K Healing score, with our escorts at around 200-300K DPS.

Various name calling from klinks ensue, usually something about how we are all science ships or something. Never understood why.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
04-06-2010, 02:16 PM
Excellent data collection and graphing.

Unfortunately, as others have stated, there are simply too many variables that are not being controlled, which means that no definite conclusions about factions, maps, ship types, careers, abilities, PUGs, or premades can be drawn from these data.

I would recommend you resume your efforts in a more controlled fashion, such as only one type of map and only PUGs vs. PUGs. Ensure that this is conducted over several days with different player names in the score reports for both sides.

Then vary as appropriate for each data set.

I look forward to seeing more controlled data compiled and presented.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
04-06-2010, 03:05 PM
At least the OP is not whining. i give him alot of credit for that.

since the sampling given in the OP is from tier 5 there is another factor to consider that after skimming through this thread i didnt see (probably is there but i am blind according to my GF...) -

klingons level up primarily through PVP. if you are facing a tier 5 klingon, it is a very safe bet to say he has alot more STO pvp experience under his belt, unless you also have a tier 5 klingon alt.

my klingon is only commander ranked, and i started him after i hit RAdm on my fed toon. just from getting to commader on my klink, my pvp skills on the fed side have greatly improved.

many klingon players also have fed toons for pve play... they tend to be fairly knowledgeable about fed ships/classes. most of what i have learned about my fed toon i learned from klingon players explaining it to me, even when we were fighting...

taking that into account, generally klingons are more skilled in pvp, especially when pugging. they have just been doing it longer. couple that with their tendency to be familiar with their enemy's ships, and the fact they tend to more freely communicate their knowledge (in my experience... highly subjective) and they have the skill/teamwork advantage.

i have also hit organized fed groups that are just plain brutal.... and i mean brutal.

i was in a large salvage map that lasted for almost an hour at commander level. i found out later the feds were on a vent, and most of the klinks were too... the klinks were team chatting with me on what was going on, even letting me take lead as far as action goes cause it was easier. we could easily pick out the feds that werent on the fed vent, but they soon fell into line like i did. we klinks ended up winning... by 5 influence points.

i consider the salvage maps to be a netter measure of pvp balance simply because it isnt kill based, i.e. run in and who shoots first has an advantage. i have also been in salvage maps at tier 5 that went back and forth. balance id there. klingons specialize in war, fed specialize in science. klingons have no true science vessel (bop can fill the role, but doesnt get same bonuses and doest do as well), and in pvp sci abilities rule supreme...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
04-06-2010, 03:37 PM
I like your effort in collecting the data but you can't really reach any conclusions based up on it with out further detail.

What most people fail to realize with STO is that it is a Team vs Team pvp game. It is designed to take the entire team into consideration. I find in STO the team that plays the best will always win despite the whining about Sci skills or Klingon BOPs.
I will put to you that STO is one of the most balanced games because as a consistant PVPer I have been looking for that in every PVP game I have played. STO rewards the teams that play the best in any given match.
The better team can over come every STO failing which is a good indication that balance is not that far off.

For your data to show other wise or to validate your comments we need the following data.

Did you play in only PUGs?
How many Pre-mades did you play in?
How often did you use Vent?
Do you give Vent info out to Pug members?
Did you play with the same fleet members in every fight?
How many Klingon teams were Pre-mades?
How many Klingons were Pugs?
How many matches did your PUGs have under there belt when you played with them?
How many matches did your Fleet members have under there belt when you played with them?
How many matches did the Klingons have under there belts when you faced them?


Are you starting to get the point?

In STO the better team wins every PVP match. I have played to max on both sides and that has been true in every one of my cases. In two evenly match teams the ones that make the least amount of mistakes wins.

If you want to find real data then put together two equivelant teams with the same skills from each side then fight 1000 matches just against each other. That is the only way to gather any data that is reliable.

Even then it could be argued that once one team played against another enough that one may adapt more quickly giving a large advantage over another.


My entire point is your data has no relevance to whether the game is balanced or not.


Vllad
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
04-06-2010, 04:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vllad
I like your effort in collecting the data but you can't really reach any conclusions based up on it with out further detail.

What most people fail to realize with STO is that it is a Team vs Team pvp game. It is designed to take the entire team into consideration. I find in STO the team that plays the best will always win despite the whining about Sci skills or Klingon BOPs.
I will put to you that STO is one of the most balanced games because as a consistant PVPer I have been looking for that in every PVP game I have played. STO rewards the teams that play the best in any given match.
The better team can over come every STO failing which is a good indication that balance is not that far off.

For your data to show other wise or to validate your comments we need the following data.

Did you play in only PUGs?
How many Pre-mades did you play in?
How often did you use Vent?
Do you give Vent info out to Pug members?
Did you play with the same fleet members in every fight?
How many Klingon teams were Pre-mades?
How many Klingons were Pugs?
How many matches did your PUGs have under there belt when you played with them?
How many matches did your Fleet members have under there belt when you played with them?
How many matches did the Klingons have under there belts when you faced them?


Are you starting to get the point?

In STO the better team wins every PVP match. I have played to max on both sides and that has been true in every one of my cases. In two evenly match teams the ones that make the least amount of mistakes wins.

If you want to find real data then put together two equivelant teams with the same skills from each side then fight 1000 matches just against each other. That is the only way to gather any data that is reliable.

Even then it could be argued that once one team played against another enough that one may adapt more quickly giving a large advantage over another.


My entire point is your data has no relevance to whether the game is balanced or not.


Vllad
but the OP data could very well be indicative of the over all skill in team combat of FvK teams, tho his sample is a bit small. could be an indication that would prompt further research to confirm or refute the original sampling.

it would be nice if the DEVS would maintain a score chart on these maps that could be viewed via web page. weekly, and by map perhaps? include kills, deaths, healing, and overall map wins.

also, u still get badges, energy merit/honor and skill points just for showing up. so you get around 5 badges less if you lose...(yes i know it adds up)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
04-06-2010, 05:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ipigi
The sad, ugly truth is that while Klingons do deal more damage than Federation players on average, damage is not everything. A player could rake up 600K damage in a round, but yield 0 kills.

Individual play is what is killing Federation, never mind the fact that many of them don't know their class. Just look at how much healing our cruisers are doing. If you use that as proof that klingons do more damage.... then yes, they do, why didn't they win?

Our Science officer did below 100K damage, was he slacking off? God no, he played a vital role, it just doesn't reflect on the damage board.

There is more to winning an encounter than damage done.

Klingons are not OP, and I invite anyone to quote me on that.
Hello...
what you have written here is exactly what i wanted to figure out in my thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ipigi
DPS is not my main worry in matches. I leave that to the escorts. That doesn't mean I don't shoot at things, just that, as I cruiser, I don't fool myself into thinking I can out-dps an escort on the final score.
I totally agree with what you write. It is unbelievable how many haven't recognized how important teamplay is, and how many think they are great player just because they do high damage in some random PVP matches.

In my opinion, teamplay is even more important for Feds, because most of the time they have to react on the Klingon actions. In unorganized public matches, the Klingons are advanteged, of course, because of cloak (so important for gathering) + variable bridge officers (BoP) + better turn rates + cruisers can equip cannons and so on. Everyone who says these are no advantages doesn't know what he is talking about... how do you call that? But these advantages only reflect in unorganized PVP matches. In organized matches where the enemy is prepared to what's coming, these advantages won' t guarantee you a victory... So are Klingons OP? - No, but...

teamplay is so absolutely very very important!

Maybe too important beacause if you only want to play sometimes "1 or 2 fast rounds in PVP" you will not have much fun, especially on Fed side... If you start realizing you have to play for the team (healing / supporting / keep ypur deaths low / especially, support fed escorts / ...), not for the damage, the fun will come.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
04-06-2010, 05:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixTril View Post
1. They're all just PVP maps that I happened to queue up for.
2. I'm not trying to extrapolate causes for the results. I'm just saying that there's something going wrong with PVP.
3. I'm not disputing that the skill levels can vary widely. In fact, I'm certain that they do. But I don't think that there is a massive skill disparity for all 30 rounds.
4. I only have 30 rounds to work with here, so far. Even straight up Salvage or straight up Arena, the results are still not promising.



Most of these matches were spread over three weeks. The same names appear sometimes, but far from all the time. I can send you the screenshots if you'd like.
I'm not that godawful a player, I tended to stay in the top two or three in damage dealt on most of the matches. Even if I'm terrible, am I truly the deciding factor in all 24 losses? That's a bit of a stretch.

It's not 'meaningless'. That's a bit far to go. There's a problem, here. Even in an informal poll, I wouldn't expect the results to be so skewed.



I know that Feds can break 100k damage. In many of the rounds, particularly Salvage rounds, even I broke 100k damage. But in matches like Arena, the Feds never stayed alive long enough to do that kind of damage. It kind of messes up the average.

Even when, in Arena matches, we formed up into teams immediately, it all went horribly wrong and we all died. A lot. Usually, fifteen times in a row without making a dent. You're absolutely right, your kinds of matches that you show in your videos are not the norm. I've never had a match like that, not once, not ever. If my team has a ventrilo server that they're all coordinating on, they don't tell me about it. Typically, there is zero communication on a fed team.

I know it's possible for a fed team to rack up tons of damage, and no kills. But in maps like Arena, kills are the way to win, and the kills and points have to come from someone.

Individual play is kind of the norm for the Feds. Like I say, I'm not sure how to deal with this problem. But there's a problem.

The sentiment amongst Fed players that I talk to is that 'T5 PVP sux'. I'm at least trying to quantify why.

I kind of expected to get flamed up one side and down the other. I'm just going to say that there's a problem, and leave it at that.
Dud you even watch the video's?? I was on the wrong side of one of those butt kickings LOL. Although it was hard of my ego it was refreshing to see a good Fed team. If you look at the end scores PLEASE take note of the feds HEALS! Damage means little when your team heals.
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