Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
04-13-2010, 03:25 PM
1. It's harder for PUG Feds to join a team than for Klingons. Usually someone is late to join, and someone else takes off solo, both of which make it harder to invite those players. If the Klingons are fast, it's not unusual to get attacked while I'm looking up the report to /invite anyone I might have missed. Since the Klingons get to start the fight whenever they please, they never have to start without everyone on the team.

2. Shield heals don't count.

3. Hulls are very fragile.

4. Cloaking allows better focus fire, which combined with #2 and #3 means that fed ships either stop damage with shield healing (and get no points) or they take hull damage and die.

5. Klingon ships are more often in a position to escape combat with a damaged hull. Superior turning means Klingons take fewer torpedo hits (which you can't heal a hull through). Attacking from cloak means that while Klingons are more able to focus fire against fed ships, the fed ships are likely to divide their fire depending on who they see first.

I do think that player skill is a big part of it, but if both factions were able to form teams equally then that would take care of some of the difference. If alpha strikes become less dominant, that will take care of a *lot* of the difference -- right now burst DPS is king, shields pop in under 5 seconds if left untended, and hulls are to fragile to heal them through torpedo crits, so when the fight opens with one side focussing down a single target there really isn't a chance for healing to make a difference.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
04-13-2010, 03:51 PM
@ inktomi19d You make good rational points. Just thought I'd offer my two cents - please rebuttal.

1) I don't agree. Klingons have late to join as well. It's fairly common for us but I'm not sure if it's as common as Feds? I usually see a decent Fed team when I start so I haven't noticed it being lopsided either way.

2) I was under the impression that they added shield healing already. Or is it still in testing? If I'm mistaken then you've got me on that one. Do you guys really do that much more shield healing? Obviously you do on yourself with RSP but what about your teammates? I don't see you guys exchanging science teams or extend shields as often as is necessary (which is part of my main point - and trust me I'm watching for it).

3) Hulls are not as fragile as shields (except if you pop RSP) but I agree with you in the case of my own experience - I loaded my Tac slots with +damage to torpedoes so I go for the hull. Federation need more hull to counter cloak but that doesn't necessarily mean they can't heal it either. Escorts die no matter what though, which I'd expect, unless you were referring to escorts in your post.

4) Contrary to popular belief our Klingon PuGs don't actually plan our focus fire - with possible exception when we do actually get a full team at the start and we focus the first target (but nothing planned after that).

5) See #4. You win on the turn rate though but is it a significant difference?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
04-13-2010, 04:03 PM
They are not close enough to heal each other capt. kirking in one at a time LOL. The few groups Ive come accross that does heal usually comes out on top.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
04-13-2010, 04:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ipigi
Most Feds don't know how to heal others, or that cruisers are amazing healers.

Heck, for fun I will sometimes jump into an escort to pew pew and end up having more healing using eng team 1 than 90% of the people there.

So why Feds can't heal :

1) They don't play in a team, usually solo play even in PvP
2) They don't heal others, just themselves even when in a team
3) Cruisers don't know their role and try to out-dps escorts instead of heal
4) Too much self-reliance, wrong BOFF builds for PvP
5) Too much reliance on shields to protect them against damage (shield heals not counted in healing total)

Maybe other reasons, but that's my top 5 in no particular order.

I agree. I thought there was disparity in Fed/Kling healing till a couple days ago when I got into a group with some guys that knew what they were doing. A Sci and a Cruiser devoted the bulk of them efforts to keeping my Escort alive. Every time I down below about 30% they'd hit with heal and top everything up.We plowed through everything.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
04-13-2010, 04:10 PM
i think the point he was making with #1 was that for klingons, specially all bops, you have a fairly more leisurely time on getting people invited into the same team, since theres nothing preventing you from doing /invite while cloaked and in transit. for feds, theyd need to get everyone grouped in as soon as they can because they aren't exactly sure if klingons will be sporting enough to wait until both sides have an equal team, or if theyre already en route to where the feds currently are, or if they have enough time to discuss who does what.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
04-13-2010, 04:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NinJarate
i think the point he was making with #1 was that for klingons, specially all bops, you have a fairly more leisurely time on getting people invited into the same team, since theres nothing preventing you from doing /invite while cloaked and in transit. for feds, theyd need to get everyone grouped in as soon as they can because they aren't exactly sure if klingons will be sporting enough to wait until both sides have an equal team, or if theyre already en route to where the feds currently are, or if they have enough time to discuss who does what.
Oh that's definitely true NinJarate. Good call. My bad.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
04-13-2010, 06:31 PM
Thought I'd throw my two cents in.

Since I'm a tac, in a cruiser, I can't use the more powerful engineer heals. For me at least, I have the option of either engineer 2, or extend shields/RSP. I use a lot of extend shields, which doesn't get counted for healing, but is literally a hundred times better than any heal. It's like throwing an RSP on an ally but for 30 seconds instead of 15. Only problem is, you put your life in the hands of your teammates when you do use it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
04-13-2010, 08:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheYak
@ inktomi19d You make good rational points. Just thought I'd offer my two cents - please rebuttal.

1) I don't agree. Klingons have late to join as well. It's fairly common for us but I'm not sure if it's as common as Feds? I usually see a decent Fed team when I start so I haven't noticed it being lopsided either way.
Klingons don't have to organize under fire. I'm on a lot of Klingon PUGs that just don't team up for one reason or another, but it's still a lot easier.

Look at it this way: if you come into a match late, is it easier to "request to join" while you are cloaked and approaching the battle, or while you are actively defending yourself against one or more ships?

Personally I put priority on organizing the team. I'll "request to join" first and target enemies second, or continue throwing out invites while I'm under attack. But most players don't do that, and so it's pretty common for space PUGs to only have teams of 3 or 4.

Quote:
2) I was under the impression that they added shield healing already. Or is it still in testing? If I'm mistaken then you've got me on that one. Do you guys really do that much more shield healing? Obviously you do on yourself with RSP but what about your teammates? I don't see you guys exchanging science teams or extend shields as often as is necessary (which is part of my main point - and trust me I'm watching for it).
I might be wrong about shield healing not being counted yet.

I don't usually see science teams being exchanged, but I see a *lot* of extend shields. I use it on my cruiser, and on my escort I benefit from it constantly. When I'm not getting vaporized by the alpha-strike that is.

Quote:
3) Hulls are not as fragile as shields (except if you pop RSP) but I agree with you in the case of my own experience - I loaded my Tac slots with +damage to torpedoes so I go for the hull. Federation need more hull to counter cloak but that doesn't necessarily mean they can't heal it either. Escorts die no matter what though, which I'd expect, unless you were referring to escorts in your post.
On either my escort or cruiser I can hang on pretty well as long as the shields stay up, but once I start taking hull hits I'm pretty much done. Engineering team doesn't make much difference because torpedo damage is so high.

Quote:
4) Contrary to popular belief our Klingon PuGs don't actually plan our focus fire - with possible exception when we do actually get a full team at the start and we focus the first target (but nothing planned after that).
The first target is almost always planned, and that makes a big difference. I know this because most fights start with 5 ships firing on my escort, and when I play Klingon we almost always pick the first target.

After that, Klingon fire is still going to tend to be more focussed because Klingons tend to start the fight all facing the same direction. When you're all faced the same way, you tend to all pick up the same target whether it's planned or not. The fedball is pointed every which-way, so players naturally pick up different targets as they bring their weapons to bear.

Quote:
5) See #4. You win on the turn rate though but is it a significant difference?
For torpedoes, yes, it's huge. My battlecruiser feels more like my escort than my cruiser, and can bring torpedoes or even dual cannons to bear pretty reliably. The cruiser isn't as bad as it used to be, but it's not hard to stay out of the front arc of a cruiser.



I really think that it's just damage in general which deters healing right now. I think the feds tend to come out on the worse side of the extreme damage for a couple of reasons, which probably has a lot to do with why they heal less often. I try to heal a bit in PUGs but I'm very often watching people blow up in 5 seconds while I'm trying to get into range. Extend shields from my cruiser is a big help, but my escort only has science team for healing, and that's not going to save someone that's under fire from more than one enemy.

I'm not saying that players don't make a difference, but I just don't think players make the whole difference. Many of us play both sides, so it's not as if I suddenly become more team oriented when I play my Klingon, or suck any less than I do on my Fed. Playing Fed feels a whole lot more like whack-a-mole though, even when I'm on an organized team.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
04-13-2010, 08:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheYak
Why is Fed healing so low?
Too many wordy responses. The real answer is the same as all others: Klingons are OP and the devs need to nerf them... a good start would be to remove all healing abilities from klinks and double it for feds.

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
04-13-2010, 09:18 PM
Why is Fed healing so low? It's part of the culture of the playerbase that predominantly (or only) plays the Federation [+1 to generalizations, please :p]

You have alot of PvE oriented guys that may dabble in PvP here and there. Their builds are dedicated to PvE and total self reliance. PvE oriented builds or game experience mostly in that style of play usually doesn't translate well for PvP in most cases (IMO).

There is this awful... AWFUL mindset in many Feds that they wouldn't bother healing / repairing / support a fellow team member. It gets better at Fed T5, but along the way, don't expect help, even if you are the guy attracting the attention of the entire KDF team.

Feds are more prone to venture off by themselves to get blasted. KDF players tend to roam in groups, at least pairs. Nothing like seeing the Fed team scattered about the entire Salvage Ops map, isolated. They get ripped apart by small, detached groups, one by one. Can't support each other if the nearest ally is 20k away.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:28 PM.