Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1001
11-29-2010, 01:29 PM
[quote=Valias][quote=Allerka;3187893]It's only been around for 23 years, and technically Rogue Trader (a.k.a. 1st edition) was a tactical RPG. :p
Quote:
Okay, okay - 20 years is still way too long. :p
And I don't know much about the details concerning Rogue Trader's ruleset, but if it's anything like Inquisitor, I refuse to compare it to the goodness that is Dark Heresy.

Fanmade, I suppose?

The Dark Heresy Rulebook's introduction section even outright states that it's taken far too long to put a P&P out for 40k, which wouldn't make sense if there already was one.
since when has games workshop ever made sense?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1002
11-29-2010, 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by homsikpanda View Post
try paint thinner?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenstein View Post
Paint thinner. If that doesn't work, club soda.
Thanks, since I didn't have any of that over the weekend I had to make do with ethyl alcohol. I will try that with the next two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capulet View Post
M-80s, napalm, thermite, I can think of a few ways.
I wanted to get the paint off the models, not the other way around.


Quote:
Originally Posted by homsikpanda View Post
since when has games workshop ever made sense?
Never.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1003
11-29-2010, 06:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Okay, okay - 20 years is still way too long. :p
And I don't know much about the details concerning Rogue Trader's ruleset, but if it's anything like Inquisitor, I refuse to compare it to the goodness that is Dark Heresy.

Fanmade, I suppose?

The Dark Heresy Rulebook's introduction section even outright states that it's taken far too long to put a P&P out for 40k, which wouldn't make sense if there already was one.
No, I'm quite certain it was official. But it was so obscure and had virtually non-existent sales it was only around for a short while, most people don't even know about.

No biggie though, we have the awesomeness that is Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1004
11-30-2010, 12:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allerka View Post
No biggie though, we have the awesomeness that is Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch now.
"Awesomeness" is a bit much.... All three game systems lack freedom during character creation (and after that, no change of careers ("if you're a Jet you're a Jet all the way"), the structure is horrible (Dire Avengers in Creatures Anathema, Dire Avenger Exarch in Ascension, Warlocks in Lure of the Expanse, no Eldar at all in Deathwatch, but chaos marines and their marks in the book for the MIB alien hunters of 40k), Deathwatch has those silly solo mode/squad mode maneuvers (yeah, marines are "teh awesumm", but they don't need a friggin' new combat system), the Rogue Trader ship point/profit factor system doesn't work right, because ship points can be exchanged for profit factor and the first playable aliens we got were Kroot and Orks (in a book full of Eldar and Dark Eldar equipment). But still, it's 40k, and there's a whole lot of great stuff too.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1005
11-30-2010, 04:53 AM
Ehh, I've heard great things about the fluff in the books. And I'm not worried about poorly crafted sample missions, I know I can make way better on my own.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1006
11-30-2010, 06:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allerka View Post
Ehh, I've heard great things about the fluff in the books. And I'm not worried about poorly crafted sample missions, I know I can make way better on my own.
speaking of fluff... -has started growing winter coat and is even more extra fluffy then usual- ^_______^
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1007
11-30-2010, 09:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Tar
All three game systems lack freedom during character creation (and after that, no change of careers ("if you're a Jet you're a Jet all the way")
Whilst I usually like freedom in character creation (I maintain to this day that TDE4 had the best char generation ever), I think it's quite appropriate for the 40k world. A Guardsman is a Guardsman, and an Adept is an Adept. It's common that people grow into these roles from childhood onward (and even if they did something else for a short while, it's easy to just use that as background and pick skills that "fit" with it), so how much freedom would they really have? And considering who they work for, I can also understand that they won't take up other careers. A Guardsman is a Guardsman for life, just like an Adept won't get much approval for trying to change why he was recruited in the first place.

Also we have to keep in mind that you can still gain skills and abilities from other careers as Elite Advances. You just can't snap a finger and say "okay, my Arbites becomes a full-time Rogue now".

This is somewhat more awkward for Rogue Trader, where the characters are not directly limited by their employment - but still, those guys don't lead easy lifes, either, and realistically, I can imagine few situations where a character would actually want to change his entire career over such a short timespan.

I have to agree about the structure, though. I don't think it is intentional, just ... poorly planned. The books have everything you need for a given campaign, it can just get hard to assemble all the exotic bits when you want to brew your own stuff (depending on how much you want to deviate from the standard scenarios).
But hey, that's where the community comes into play. Have you checked this website or the forums?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1008
11-30-2010, 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Whilst I usually like freedom in character creation (I maintain to this day that TDE4 had the best char generation ever),
Had? HAS!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
I think it's quite appropriate for the 40k world. A Guardsman is a Guardsman, and an Adept is an Adept. It's common that people grow into these roles from childhood onward (and even if they did something else for a short while, it's easy to just use that as background and pick skills that "fit" with it), so how much freedom would they really have? And considering who they work for, I can also understand that they won't take up other careers. A Guardsman is a Guardsman for life, just like an Adept won't get much approval for trying to change why he was recruited in the first place.
The problem is that the possible combinations are just a fraction of what's possible, and multi-classing (or whatever the system allows, in TDE it's completely unnecessary) isn't exclusively for career changes but also for realizing concepts that are not covered by the standard classes. Because not every soldier is a guardsman, not every policeman an arbitrator and not every adept a bookworm who can barely defend himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Also we have to keep in mind that you can still gain skills and abilities from other careers as Elite Advances. You just can't snap a finger and say "okay, my Arbites becomes a full-time Rogue now".
Elite Advances barely have precise rules and seem more like a patch on a gaping hole in the rules, and no, the arbitrator can't say that he becomes a full-time rogue, no matter the circumstances. Even if he falls to chaos and chooses to become a criminal, he's stuck in his class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
This is somewhat more awkward for Rogue Trader, where the characters are not directly limited by their employment - but still, those guys don't lead easy lifes, either, and realistically, I can imagine few situations where a character would actually want to change his entire career over such a short timespan.
Rogue Trader is another point where I find the system incredibly annoying. The rulebook mentions that there are sometimes Inquisitors (ore acolytes) who are basically made into Rogue Traders to exile them. Nice, seems like the perfect way to combine all three RPGs, just "exile" a Deathwatch squad along with them. The problem: There's absolutely no rule to convert any class from DH, be it core or ascension into Rogue Trader, Arch-Militant etc. Instead an exiled Inquisitor can still only level as an Inquisitor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
I have to agree about the structure, though. I don't think it is intentional, just ... poorly planned. The books have everything you need for a given campaign, it can just get hard to assemble all the exotic bits when you want to brew your own stuff (depending on how much you want to deviate from the standard scenarios).
I think that much poor planning has to be intentional. They spread everything over all three systems. There's just no excuse for a few things like marks of chaos in the Deathwatch core rulebook or Eldar Warlocks and Wraithguard only in a Rogue Trader adventure. Or rules for untouchables in Disciples of the Dark Gods. Psychic nulls have nothing to do with the chaos gods. Maybe I'm spoiled by D&D and TDE, but if there's a specific book for enemies I want them in there first and then reprinted in the specific adventures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
But hey, that's where the community comes into play. Have you checked this website or the forums?
Yep, I'm in the forums (nickname Mjoellnir) and I know Dark Reign, there are a bunch of nice rules there (I love the BFG conversions for RT), but as far as I know they can't publish stuff from FFG, so I still need 5 or more books for the stats of a normal Eldar warhost.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1009
11-30-2010, 11:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Tar
[...] for realizing concepts that are not covered by the standard classes. Because not every soldier is a guardsman, not every policeman an arbitrator and not every adept a bookworm who can barely defend himself.
But how exactly would the soldiers or policemen differ from each other in that they need totally different class stats? In terms of skills, there's not much of a difference between Guardsmen, PDF militias or mercenaries that cannot be covered by the rules as they are. And if a concept gets that exotic that there really is that much of a gap, I'm a little unconvinced as to why it's necessary to actually play something that special.

It's true that the system is tailored to and focuses on these archetypes, but in doing so, it manages to make it all the more "40k'ish".

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Tar
Elite Advances barely have precise rules and seem more like a patch on a gaping hole in the rules, and no, the arbitrator can't say that he becomes a full-time rogue, no matter the circumstances. Even if he falls to chaos and chooses to become a criminal, he's stuck in his class.
Yes, but I am of the opinion that a rogue Arbites behaves completely different and uses another skillset than your off-the-mill street crim. I find it far more plausible to tweak the existing Arbites path (either by just selecting those advances that fit to the new role, or by exchanging some perks for directly comparable alternatives) than to suddenly give him access to abilities he could not possibly attain in that little time, if at all (such as a hardcore enforcer who grew up as an indoctrinated tool of a dictatorship "suddenly" developing a knack for the Rogue's smooth-talk and con-skills).

If you'd want to do it realistic you would need a special "Corrupted Arbites" career, but when I have to choose between cross-classing or sticking to one career but allowing Elite Advances, I still find the latter far more plausible.
In fact, doesn't the Radicals rulebook deal with such cases, at least remotely?

It's the best you can do for a class-based system. I think we can all agree that something like TDE4 is superior in not using classes at all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1010
11-30-2010, 11:39 AM
Played the Table Top. Dark Angels Army. Love the RTS. Playing the newest add on now.
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