Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1011
11-30-2010, 01:14 PM
I probably know the answer and it's just not coming to me, but what's TDE4?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1012
11-30-2010, 01:51 PM
The Dark Eye (original title: Das Schwarze Auge) is a German P&P RPG that's as popular as D&D there, but never kinda really made it to international fame due to a botched release and lousy marketing (they made, like, two English books and that's it). You might know the setting from the Drakensang PC game, though.

Whilst its earlier versions did not differ much from your standard D&Dish rules, the 4th edition completely revamped character generation, doing away with classes and levels in favor of a more liberal creation process. Now you get to build your character from a selection of race + culture + professions - where the "profession" merely states what your character did before going on adventure, kind of like a starter package of skills and attributes. There are several hundred professions, from couriers and fishermen to mercenaries and wh.ores. Basically everything you could imagine as a job for someone in a fantasy setting.

Additional skills and stats are purchased directly for the experience points a character accumulates without being bound to any class or level. DMs are advised to keep an eye on this, though - a character is only supposed to "buy" skills that they actually had a chance to learn (such as upgrading your "swimming" stat after an adventure where you had to swim through a lake).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Eye
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1013
11-30-2010, 02:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
But how exactly would the soldiers or policemen differ from each other in that they need totally different class stats? In terms of skills, there's not much of a difference between Guardsmen, PDF militias or mercenaries that cannot be covered by the rules as they are. And if a concept gets that exotic that there really is that much of a gap, I'm a little unconvinced as to why it's necessary to actually play something that special.
Why play something that special? Because in the end all RPG characters are "special". They may start out as arbitrators, guardsmen , scribes etc, but they are also agents of the Inquisition and will (if they survive) become Inquisitors, Vindicare Assassins etc.). Every elf in TDE who's crazy enough to travel around with a bunch of badoc humans is special, as is every priest of Rondra who fights alongside a dwarven crossbowman.
Let's look at my personal special case. I had an idea for a former serf of a Space Marine chapter from a deathworld who worked mainly in the librarium. (Being invited to work for the Inquisition would be a real chance for someone like that, because it doesn't matter how good he is, all the genetically enhanced killers around him would never take him seriously.) Deathworld and spacie serf would usually mean that he should be half-way competent in terms of fighting , librarium duty would mean some interesting lore skills. In TDE it would have been possible to play either a scribe and invest the starting talent points in weapon skills or a soldier and invest in knowledge skills or even both professions with the wide-ranging education advantage. In D&D I would have started as a rogue for the skill points and multi-classed into fighter for the combat abilities. In Dark Heresy it's not only strictly either/or, Feral World (the closest thing to death world in DH) and Adept is an illegal combination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
It's true that the system is tailored to and focuses on these archetypes, but in doing so, it manages to make it all the more "40k'ish".
It focuses a bit too much on the tabletop. Sure, it's great to see a bunch of units as characters, but the miniatures from 40k and Necromunda aren't everything that exists there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Yes, but I am of the opinion that a rogue Arbites behaves completely different and uses another skillset than your off-the-mill street crim. I find it far more plausible to tweak the existing Arbites path (either by just selecting those advances that fit to the new role, or by exchanging some perks for directly comparable alternatives) than to suddenly give him access to abilities he could not possibly attain in that little time, if at all (such as a hardcore enforcer who grew up as an indoctrinated tool of a dictatorship "suddenly" developing a knack for the Rogue's smooth-talk and con-skills).
He wouldn't. If he could switch classes he would still keep all his Arbitrator training and skills but be able to purchase that of another class with his xp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
If you'd want to do it realistic you would need a special "Corrupted Arbites" career, but when I have to choose between cross-classing or sticking to one career but allowing Elite Advances, I still find the latter far more plausible.
In fact, doesn't the Radicals rulebook deal with such cases, at least remotely?
Not really, the Radical's Handbook mainly deals with characters who violate imperial laws in their fight against the enemies of the Imperium. And for Arbitrators there's only a starting package for that, nothing for later in the career. And why making a special career for every possible way someone could be corrupted? There's not only chaos, there's also the Tau, the Yu'vath etc. If someone has to make a radical change in his lifestyle he should be able to change his career. Like a corrupted arbitrator who goes into crime changing to scum or an adept stuck on a desert world without a single book but a lasgun and a bunch of Necrons switching to guardsman or assassin, at least for the time he's forced to stay in that environment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
It's the best you can do for a class-based system. I think we can all agree that something like TDE4 is superior in not using classes at all.
In terms of a class-based system I prefer Pathfinder (upgrade of D&D 3.5), but TDE beats everything.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1014
11-30-2010, 06:33 PM
A good classless system is the BESM Tristat system. There are some classes, which are more customizable frameworks for common archetypes. But basically the players all get a set number of character points and they make a character based on a set of skills and abilities. Thus everyone's character is theoretically in balance with the others. When you level up you get more character points.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1015
11-30-2010, 08:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Tar
Why play something that special? Because in the end all RPG characters are "special".
No, they're not. There is a difference between characters who are "everyday heroes" and exotic exceptions. I touched upon that topic recently here.
All characters are unique, but not all characters are special in a way that makes them stand out from everything else. I guess it boils down to gameplay preferences if you want such characters on your table or not - I don't, so I find the rules adequate. YMMV.

As for your special case: The way you have approached the realization of your concept it sounds as if you basically tried to build a barbarian scientist. That does not work. And it shouldn't.

I would have suggested a choice between these two options:

A: Feudal World + Adept + Guardsman-related Elite Advances
This character has spent a large part of his life within the Fortress Monastery of his Astartes Chapter (-> Feudal World background) and was mainly tasked with duties in the Scriptorium (Adept career). However, he not only retained some of his old Clan's warrior skills learned early in his youth, but has also received training in the usage of Imperial weapons (Guardsman Elite Advances).

B: Feral World + Guardsman + Adept-related Elite Advances
This character has spent less time in the Chapter and more with his own people (Feral World background), resulting in him developing remarkable strength and skill with weapons (Guardsman career). However, he was later deemed intelligent enough to be recruited as a Chapter serf by the local Marines, where an old Adept taught him how to read cogitator slates or write with an autoquill (Adept Elite Advances).

So you can either play a scholar with some warrior skills or a warrior with some scholar skills. You can not play Doctor Conan, but I refuse to see what's wrong with that. :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Tar
He wouldn't. If he could switch classes he would still keep all his Arbitrator training and skills but be able to purchase that of another class with his xp.
I still don't see why that Arbitrator should suddenly be able to learn everything the Rogue picked up over decades in his unique lifestyle. An Arbitrator going rogue will, with time, be able to pick up some new skills, but this can easily be realized by Elite Advances and should never extend to the Rogue's entire arsenal. An Ex-Arbitrator is still an Arbitrator, and he will find it rather difficult to fit in with the other side of the law, given that it stands against everything he learned. You can't just "switch off" years of indoctrination, habit and experience (which will hinder learning new stuff) just because you as a player think Rogue skills would come in handy and you absolutely need them all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1016
12-01-2010, 06:24 AM
Hi

I was looking through a pile of my old games and came across Nexus The Jupiter Incident, this game would be a good base for 40K ship based combat.

You only controlled a couple of ships at a time, had escorts, battleships, different weapons for taking down shields then switch to hull damaging ones, you could target and destroy loads of sub systems, you could cripple a ship and destroy all its weapons, shields, engines, sensors etc and leave it dead in space or you could destroy it for a huge screen blinding explosion.
Also has carriers with fighters and bombers which were good a taking about bases and ships systems once you has destroyed there anti aircraft systems.

Videos on youtube here http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...+incident&aq=f loots like there is also some Star Trek mod ones.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1017
12-01-2010, 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanfron View Post
Hi

I was looking through a pile of my old games and came across Nexus The Jupiter Incident, this game would be a good base for 40K ship based combat.

You only controlled a couple of ships at a time, had escorts, battleships, different weapons for taking down shields then switch to hull damaging ones, you could target and destroy loads of sub systems, you could cripple a ship and destroy all its weapons, shields, engines, sensors etc and leave it dead in space or you could destroy it for a huge screen blinding explosion.
Also has carriers with fighters and bombers which were good a taking about bases and ships systems once you has destroyed there anti aircraft systems.

Videos on youtube here http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...+incident&aq=f loots like there is also some Star Trek mod ones.
Interesting. That didn't look half-bad. I've never even heard about it, but I might just have to look it up on Steam. And there's a Star Trek mod for it, heh.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1018
12-01-2010, 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allerka View Post
Interesting. That didn't look half-bad. I've never even heard about it, but I might just have to look it up on Steam.
Same here. :3
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1019
12-02-2010, 05:21 AM
Its an old game,was originally going to be Imperium Galactica 3 then got canned and reborn as Nexus, think you can find the Original IG3 demo around, not tried the Nexus demo.

Looking at the vids there is also B5 and Stargate mods, personally I don't think it quite fits with Star Trek as the ships in Nexus tend to rotate a lot which does look out of place for Star Trek ships.

I am going to reinstall as not played it for quite a while.

IG3 demo
http://www.fileplanet.com/89817/8000...:-Genesis-Demo

Nexus Demo
http://www.fileplanet.com/145979/140...piter-Incident

Wow forgot how old it is, released in 2004
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1020
12-02-2010, 06:47 AM
Yeah, I saw the Star Trek mod video. Very nicely done, they were almost on par with the STO models. The rotating around is a bit unusual, yes (at first I wasn't sure if it was because engines got knocked out or something), but in a sense it's more realistic (I mean, in space, is everyone really going to be oriented the same way during a big fight?).
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:19 PM.