Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1031
12-06-2010, 09:13 AM
< is getting out his Warhammer again after their months in storage.

Though now has to find a new place to prime them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1032
12-06-2010, 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Tar
As far as I remember most ships of chaos are defected imperial ships (in fact it is in the official rules (Armada, p. 29) that a lot of chaos cruisers are available for Segmentum Obscurus reserve fleets), and there is enough canon evidence for Space Marine chapters not caring for the Codex Smurfs. Btw, there are also tons of canon evidence for chaos marines using battle barges and strike cruisers.
Nah, that's not what I meant. All the Chaos-style ships are either pre-Imperium or designs rediscovered post-Heresy and then abandoned again (due to most of them going to Chaos), and I recall it being stated essentially all of them were destroyed or lost to Chaos. I suppose a few could have survived. All the Heresy-era Space Marine ships look closer to "modern" Imperial designs as well, so First Founding Chapters would still have that general style.

Certainly, though, in times of desperate war, one has to make do with what's available.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1033
12-06-2010, 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
But that's just my take on the subject. In my eyes, Chapter serfs are smallfolk. Peasants. But I guess our interpretation differs a bit on this detail.
I go with the BFG fluff:

"There are also a few hundred Chapter serfs to attend to other duties, such as routine cleaning and maintenance, serving the Space Marines during meal times and other such honoured tasks. These serfs come from the Chapterís home planet or the enclave they protect, many of them Novitiates or applicants who have failed some part of the recruiting or training process. These serfs are fanatically loyal to their superhuman masters, and indoctrinated into many of the lesser orders of the Chapterís Cult. Although human, they still benefit from remarkable training and access to superior weaponry than is usually found on a naval vessel, making them a fearsome prospect in a boarding action Ė even without the support of their genetically modified lords." (Armada p. 20)

So chapter serfs are pretty much badass. But they are almost never noticed because they work in the shadow of the ultimate genetically modified killers of the Imperium. That's what I find interesting about them. Chapter serfs can make both interesting characters (because of their training and completely different religious outlook) and classical jealous villains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allerka View Post
Nah, that's not what I meant. All the Chaos-style ships are either pre-Imperium or designs rediscovered post-Heresy and then abandoned again (due to most of them going to Chaos), and I recall it being stated essentially all of them were destroyed or lost to Chaos. I suppose a few could have survived. All the Heresy-era Space Marine ships look closer to "modern" Imperial designs as well, so First Founding Chapters would still have that general style.
Since they are pre-Imperium (or built with rediscovered pre-Imperial blueprints) it's not that big a stretch to imagine that a few were in action during the Heresy (being retrieved from Space Hulks or otherwise rediscovered during the Great Crusade).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allerka View Post
Certainly, though, in times of desperate war, one has to make do with what's available.
Hehe, the Fang of Destiny is the first ship my chapter ever had and they hang on to it even though the flagship is now the battle barge Honour of Hatred (which I'm going to prime today).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1034
12-06-2010, 01:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Tar
So chapter serfs are pretty much badass. But they are almost never noticed because they work in the shadow of the ultimate genetically modified killers of the Imperium. That's what I find interesting about them. Chapter serfs can make both interesting characters (because of their training and completely different religious outlook) and classical jealous villains.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that these guys can not be employed in a defensive capability. What I'm saying is the librarian won't because he's stuck in the library. It's one of many different occupations that all split off from the hypernym of "Chapter serf" - and a librarian's training will differ greatly from that of an auxiliary stationed onboard a strike cruiser, if only because the day has only 24 hours.

Oh, and I'm also sceptical as to how exactly a Chapter serf would find his way into inquisitorial service, given that, barring individual contacts (that still do not go beyond the occasional backup), the relationships between the Inquisition and the Astartes are rather strained if not outright hostile, but I suppose you may have guessed my opinion on that by now.

I prefer playing ordinary people tossed into exceptional circumstances, not exceptions tossed into exceptions. So I find that Dark Heresy works nicely for me, as the ruleset is sufficiently geared towards this spectrum. Let's just say that Dark Heresy is limited, but that this does not necessarily has to be a negative asset. It boils down to the "lowest common denominator" between the general idea of Dark Heresy and what you would have fun playing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1035
12-06-2010, 07:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Tar
I go with the BFG fluff:

"There are also a few hundred Chapter serfs to attend to other duties, such as routine cleaning and maintenance, serving the Space Marines during meal times and other such honoured tasks. These serfs come from the Chapterís home planet or the enclave they protect, many of them Novitiates or applicants who have failed some part of the recruiting or training process. These serfs are fanatically loyal to their superhuman masters, and indoctrinated into many of the lesser orders of the Chapterís Cult. Although human, they still benefit from remarkable training and access to superior weaponry than is usually found on a naval vessel, making them a fearsome prospect in a boarding action Ė even without the support of their genetically modified lords." (Armada p. 20)

So chapter serfs are pretty much badass. But they are almost never noticed because they work in the shadow of the ultimate genetically modified killers of the Imperium. That's what I find interesting about them. Chapter serfs can make both interesting characters (because of their training and completely different religious outlook) and classical jealous villains.
Yeah, most information on the topic shows that aspirants who fail some part of the transformation process (rejection of an organ or somesuch) become serfs.

Interestingly, take a look at some of the Space Marine art. Ever notice how a lot of pictures of them have these smaller cowled humans with them, waving banners, icons, collecting detritus, or whatever else? Guess who they (probably) are.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1036
12-08-2010, 05:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that these guys can not be employed in a defensive capability. What I'm saying is the librarian won't because he's stuck in the library. It's one of many different occupations that all split off from the hypernym of "Chapter serf" - and a librarian's training will differ greatly from that of an auxiliary stationed onboard a strike cruiser, if only because the day has only 24 hours.
You are making a distinction between different types of serf. I read it that way that the guys who "attend to other duties, such as routine cleaning and maintenance, serving the Space Marines during meal times and other such honoured tasks" (a librarium doesn't have to be in a chapter fortress, it's one of my favourite ship upgrades in Rogue Trader) are the same as those who "still benefit from remarkable training and access to superior weaponry than is usually found on a naval vessel".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Oh, and I'm also sceptical as to how exactly a Chapter serf would find his way into inquisitorial service, given that, barring individual contacts (that still do not go beyond the occasional backup), the relationships between the Inquisition and the Astartes are rather strained if not outright hostile, but I suppose you may have guessed my opinion on that by now.
First of all the relationship isn't rather strained in general, only with particular chapters and Inquisitors. There's a reason that both, Ordo Malleus and Ordo Hereticus could requisition Space Marines while there were no official rules to play Imperial Guard with allied Space Marines (which should be far more common). Secondly what do you think a chapter would rather give up? 10 battle-brothers or one serf?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
I prefer playing ordinary people tossed into exceptional circumstances, not exceptions tossed into exceptions. So I find that Dark Heresy works nicely for me, as the ruleset is sufficiently geared towards this spectrum.
I prefer systems that allow for both (that's why I love TDE and Pathfinder so much).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Let's just say that Dark Heresy is limited, but that this does not necessarily has to be a negative asset. It boils down to the "lowest common denominator" between the general idea of Dark Heresy and what you would have fun playing.
Let's just say that multi-classing options wouldn't hurt Dark Heresy in the least, and it is a bit annoying that after three whole game systems there are still glaring holes between what characters are possible in the 40k universe and what characters are possible in the RPG.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1037
12-08-2010, 06:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Tar
First of all the relationship isn't rather strained in general, only with particular chapters and Inquisitors.
I've read it the other way around. Marine Chapters only adhere to Imperial authority in the loosest of ways. They are fiercly independent (which is something the Inquisition hates) and often feel free to deny requests for assistance, or outright ignore them at all. Added to this comes some Chapters' closely guarded secrecy concerning certain aspects of their heritage, or a mutation in their geneseed, up to the refusal to permit Sororitas Purity Control teams to enter their strongholds for routine screening. All of this has triggered Inquisitorial investigations in the past, up to and including armed conflict between individual Marine Chapters and forces of the Imperium. To make matters worse, Marine Chapters tend to stick together due to "bonds of honour", even when one of them has been declared Excommunicate Traitoris.

I daresay that this can be described as a "rather strained relationship".

Similar to how the Ministorum and the Cult Mechanicus see each other. Same side, even working together - but only grudgingly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Tar
Secondly what do you think a chapter would rather give up? 10 battle-brothers or one serf?
The Battle-Brothers. Because if a Chapter Master actually decides to help an Inquisitor it'd be a matter of honour to send one of his best, not his worst. The Chapter's reputation is on the line, after all. Regardless of the Chapter serf's actual performance (which would likely exceed the Acolyte cell's members, or at least equal).

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Tar
glaring holes between what characters are possible in the 40k universe and what characters are possible in the RPG.
That's because the RPG is concerned with the Inquisition, not with everything that's possible in 40k, though. Problems arise only when you want to break out of this predetermined window.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1038
12-09-2010, 06:24 AM
I found a new place to prime them....the garage!

And I've finally finished one Space Marine...:p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1039
12-09-2010, 08:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MGDawson View Post
I found a new place to prime them....the garage!

And I've finally finished one Space Marine...:p
You seem to be proceeding at an appropriate speed for Space Marines. They take a lot of work.

My rank and file Guardsmen are more of a 'good enough' job.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1040
12-09-2010, 10:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenstein View Post
My rank and file Guardsmen are more of a 'good enough' job.
Have any of you actually tried out stuff like Army Painter? I'd probably not consider it for high value models like Marines or Sisters, but it might be suitable for Guardsmen. Sadly I've never tried it so far, but maybe one of you has experience?
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